How do you condition without going against Tai Chi principles?

[Ray Pina]

Since I've been focusing on the internal side of things, since I had a stomach problem about 2-3 months ago, I've lost 15 lbs and have never felt better. For the most part, it's been a change of mind, I just don't get urges like I used to, I find myself skipping dinner for the first time .... maybe just havong some oatmeal or cereal or dumplings for dinner. Not every night, but 2 or 3 times out of the week.

On a physical side, two man drills, punching drills, groundwork, etc. You'd even be surprised what walking the circle and the up/down of the opening Taiji can do .... without increasing your heart rate too.

[Tai Chi Shawn]

Thanks for the solid info, everyone. And, just so no one thinks of me as Orca, I'm 5'7 at 196lbs., with a lot of muscle development. In truth, I have about 25 lbs. of fat I should loose. Its not that I'm huge, its that what I have seems so resilient as to defeat my every effort to loose it.

Thyroid, food, exercise - I agree that the answer is in there, somewhere. Lilkely more variations are needed to discover the actual problem. My eating habits are solid, but possibly wrong for my needs. My level of activity is high, but maybe its all the wrong stuff. Its frustrating as hell.

Cam, to your point, yes I'm happy that I'm strong and healthy. I'm athletically inclined and pretty quick - a big surprise to some sparring opponents in the past who assumed I was heavy because I sat on my ass and ate chips or something. This weight thing is just a part of my training I want to fine tune. If I don't carry the extra weight, I don't have to work as hard. Chi vs. strength, etc. blahblahblah.

Dead horse thoroughly beaten. Onward and upward. Chicks galore etc etc etc

shawn

[Chief Fox]

I'm sticking with the go running to loose weight. I run 3 times a week now and 4 or 5 times a week during the summer. It's a great wy to loose weight and then keep it off. It'll boost your metabolism too.

For those that think lifting weights atomatically means bulking up YOU ARE WRONG! Lifting weights will make you stronger, it can increase your flexibility and will boost your metabolism. Bulking up requires that you eat A LOT. The increased tissue size just doesn't come out of thin air. It is a result of an increase in calories. If you eat more while also lifting, you will increase in size or bulk up. Body builders eat all the time. If you just maintain your normal calorie intake while lifting, you'll burn body fat, get stronger and boost your metabolism.

Back on topic: Tai Chi Shawn, go for a run.

[Ray Pina]

Well said. Without muscle what can your chi do for you in terms of physical expression or power issueance?

The reason I avoid lifting weights though is two fold: 1) it trains the mind to fight weight/resistance 2) I didn't believe my master when he said it, but I did find my punching power actually decrease after 3 weeks of lifting. This was about a year ago.

[Surf Taut]

Hi folks, new to the board.

It seems a common misconception that being muscular is against internal principles. This couldn't be further from the truth. Firm, toned, buffed muscles shouldn't be confused with tensing the muscles. The latter being totally against the aforementioned principles. It all boils down to relaxing and letting your structure and alignment work as nature meant it to. Nothing mystical about it. I think the chinese term is "song", relaxed but firm [not sure if this is the correct term here]. Not relaxed like a wet noodle.

Shawn, if you are trying to lose weight in hopes of improving your Taiji, you might want to rethink that. Remember, bigger is always better especially in internal. [i.e., without being flabby or obese]

[count]

Hi surf,

Welcome to the wackiest forum on earth. For the most part, I don't disagree with your first post. But it is a common misconception that what is good for one is good for everyone. Unfortunately, nothing could be further from the truth. Some people learning the so called "internal martial arts" should ask someone who knows whether weight training at certain times in their development would be an aid or detriment.

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Problem with most weight training is it develops the belly of the muscle at the expense of developing the tendons.

Taiji is all about tendon power.

If you are working your muscles and joints through the full range of motion then there is no conflict.

For this purpose I recommend body weight exercises, calisthenics and some types of weighted exercises.

[Surf Taut]

Hi Count & thanks.

Yeah, I agree. Everyone needs to find what works for them. Whether they learn it on their own or from someone/somewhere else.

I guess my point being that weight training or whatever training should not be detrimental to his Taiji as long as he adheres to the principles of the art.

[One Finger Zen]

Good posts here, and I think basically the view on the whole is that you can be physically strong AND relaxed/ supple/ adhere to the taiji principles.

I weight train and do Hung Quan or Hung Gar/Kuen. I'm pretty muscly yet I can easily relax and stick to the principles. In my opinion, it helps to be physically fit.

For exercise, Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu is definitely a good one to practice. Takes a good 10 minutes to get through and you can do it extra slow and emphasize on the fa jing. The stances can also be quite low if you prefer- a lot of people differ their opinion on that. I practice this form almost shaolin style in terms of stance height- really helps with rooting and leg strength. Ma bu is also a good stance in the hung gar to practice (everyday) but a lot of people hate having to do this static stance and more to the point, it isn't relevant to the taiji in principle.

So, practice more

[wdl]

Vash is right on the money. Assuming your not trying to bench 400lbs weight training isn't going to make you tighter. Especially if your doing low weight/high rep and stretching right, which is primarily what you need anyway. Running on the other hand for me personally is a problem. It tightens my hip flexors and no matter how much I stretch if I run 2-3 times a week I loose flexibility. If it has the same effect on you, that would of course interfere with your Tai Chi. So keep an eye on it. But a good weight training routine
plus a jump rope will go a long way without having to run.

-Will

[Vash]

**** straight I'm on the money.

I'm like Meatwad. But pretty.

As for the weight training, high reps/low weight is more apt to be a detriment to your training than the reverse - more fatigue, etc.

As for Fu-Pow's Muscles v Tendons "argument," please do the following:

1. Get a clue. I think they sell them at Wal-Mart.
2. Swallow it.
3. Drink some Miracle Grow.
4. Shake it like your mamma told ya.
5. Let the clue blossom and grow into a full-blown concept, and stop post utter garbage as relates to weight training.

Yes, it is possible in weight training for muscular strength and development (strength being a key concept here) to outpace the tendons. But, it's not exactly overly common. And following a sensible training program, employing good form with a weight you can handle for the prescribed number of repetitions will help keep your superiorly developed tendons from ripping free of your tension-free muscles.

You don't move because of your tendons. They attach bone to muscle. So, if you have punk-ass muscles, you will have punk-ass tendons.

Thus have I spoken, thus do it be.

[scholar]

The cross trainings that have been recommended to me by my seniors are:

1. Swimming

2. Hiking (not jogging)

3. Sprinting (not jogging)

4. Bike riding

These, they say, will benefit T'ai Chi training. Resistance training with weights isn't recommended as it tends to shorten and thicken the muscles, which is the opposite of the effect we are looking for in our other training. Our weight training is in our weapons and throws, weight bearing through a complete range of motion that encourages coordination instead of dumbbells in a limited range of motion that encourages repetitive strain injury. Long, loose and coordinated; not short, thick and tight.

I have found that I have gained a good amount of weight over the years as I've done T'ai Chi. This I ascribe to two main factors, an increased appetite from training all the time and genetics. All my relatives gained weight as they aged. While I feel it helps my fighting, that isn't a good excuse, I know and have known T'ai Chi masters, men and women, who could easily clean my clock who are (or were) as skinny as a rail. What I do like about it is that I feel much better than I did when I was thin. I have a lot more energy and I don't catch illnesses the way I used to. I haven't had a cold in years!

[Vash]

Originally posted by scholar
Resistance training with weights isn't recommended as it tends to shorten and thicken the muscles

If you don't follow a full ROM, use bad form, and just do bench press all the time, I can see that.

Not if you stick to a good program, though.

[wiz cool c]

What ways are there to develope strength in the internal arts without weight training. What I know so far is weapon forms standing and vigorus pushing and boxing. Are there any other ways that anyone knows of.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Vash
If you don't follow a full ROM, use bad form, and just do bench press all the time, I can see that.

Not if you stick to a good program, though.

Taiji's idea of ROM (Range of Motion) and weightliftings idea of range of motion are not the same. That is, Taiji seeks to increase the range of motion (and simultaneously coordinate it.)