How do you condition without going against Tai Chi principles?

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Vash
[B]All right, some counter-points:

1. If you weight train correctly, you move through the full range of a joint's motion.

What I'm talking about is classical weight training exercises ie bench press, military press, lat pull downs, bicep curls etc. Even if done properly the joint does not move through the full range of motion. The reason: every joint can move in 3 planes, even if only slighly, therefore any motion that takes the joint through the 3 planes is going to be spiral. The classical exercises get most of the muscle but they don't get all the way out to the tendons. Mostly they just work the "belly" of the muscle.

2. Muscles are attached to bones via the tendons. With proper weight training, the strength and hypertrophy increases of the muscle will not outpace the tendon, thus allowing proper function of the bone, muscle, and even the tendon - the function being, of course, to move the bone.

"Proper" "Correct", these are subjective terms, because we are limited to words I don't know what you are referring to. However, as I stated above, even when done "correctly" those exercises will not help with Taiji.

3. Muscles move the bone. Not the tendons. The tendons let the muscles do their job. The muscles move through tension. How much tension you can generate in a muscle is maximized by cyclic taxation of the CNS and the musculature. That does not mean you become more tense, it means you can put out more force safely. The more force you can handle, the more efficiently you can handle less force.

Muscles can shorten or lengthen. Concentric and eccentric contraction. In Taijij the muscles stay long.

4. You bear weight every day. We fight gravity. you don't get to go through life without picking heavy siht up. That's how it works.

And you've heard about the Taiji master who could throw people across the room but couldn't pick up a bowling ball? Different kinds of strength, Wai Jin and Nei Jin.

5. The human body is designed to adapt to stressors - without the stressors, the adaptation can lead to a less-than-optimumally-functional organism

6. The internal arts are chock-full of stories of strong mofos. They did not get to be strong mofos by standing in San Ti all day. In a vacuum. A gravity-free vacuum. Which is the only place the body will not be feeling external stress.

But where is the stress? On the outside or on the inside. In Taiji practice when you do standing meditation you try to relax all the muscles in your body. If a part of your body becomes tensed you feel it and it tells you that you are "holding on" somewhere. You have to learn to relax the outside (Wai) and let the inside (Nei) do the work.

The correct has been massaged, steamed, acupunctured, manicured, pedicured, and laid all over this thread.

I warned you .....*barfs all over himself*

[Fu-Pow]

I was talking about :

Peng as in swell; expand; inflate

character= http://www.chinalanguage.com/cgi-bin/char.cgi?81A8

Jin as in vigor; energy; strength [2] spirit [3] an air; manner

character= http://www.chinalanguage.com/cgi-bin/char.cgi?52C1

Ahhh......I see on the character dictionary that Jin and Jing are interchangeable pronunciations but the meaning is the same.

So Fa Jin(g) means to express strength/energy. I think usually in Taiji this refers to expressing short explosive energy like as in Kao, Zhao, Cai or Lie rather than Peng, Lu, Ji or An.

BTW, I wasn't trying to bag on your experience I just didn't understand why a Taiji guy would be arguing against the significance of Peng Jin to Taiji. You're lucky to have a good teacher....I am too!

[Toby]

Give up Vash.

[Vash]

Originally posted by Toby
Give up Vash.

Indeed.

What the **** do you mean the muscles don't shorten in TJ? If you move, one shortens, one lengthens! That is the ONLY way to move.

Alas. **** on you. I am right, you are wrong.

Thus have I spoken, thus do it be.

[scotty1]

This old chestnut again.

That thing about the master who couldn't pick up a bowling ball is ridiculous. I'd rather be able to carry my shopping home form the market than throw someone across the room when I was old!
What would be the point?



Vash, glad you're on this thread. Weight training may not be the most appropriate strength training method for tai chi, but you're dispelling myths and I'm learning a lot, cheers.

Wiz Cool C, for strength training we do weight punching, rolls, handstands, and the neigung:

24 exercises that strengthen and condition the body specifically for tai chi, or martial arts in general. Dunno how many styles have similar. I know the Wu family system has them, I've heard them referenced as the 24 forms.

[Vash]

Originally posted by scotty1
Vash, glad you're on this thread. Weight training may not be the most appropriate strength training method for tai chi, but you're dispelling myths and I'm learning a lot, cheers.

Thanks. One of my biggest gripes, though, is that any type of resistance training, even bodyweight training, is technically weight training. Though, the term is most often employed to describe exercises wherein non-bodyweight or bodyweight+ equipment is used.

So, I suppose resistance training is a more apt term.

for strength training we do weight punching, rolls, handstands, and the neigung:

We need a "thumbs up" smiley.

In all honesty, I have no idea how, with the shear volume and accessibility of proper weight training knowledge, these myths maintain such a dominant position in the martial art's psychology.

It's them **** hippies, I'm sure of it.

[count]

Actually Vash, and I have been posting this all along, is the truth always lays somewhere in the middle. People will always think their expertise is the "be-all,-end-all" solution to a problem, when in fact there is none. A good professional will understand, each problem is unique and apply the right tool for the right job.

Weight training of any kind can be counter productive to developing certain characteristics of the "internal" martial arts. And I'm not only talking about pumping iron only. On the other hand, certain types will not be harmed by, in fact can benefit from it. So what is the point of even discussing/arguing about it? If a teacher says you should/shouln't do some kind of training, he probably has more information to work with than someone who has never even seen you.

[count]

Originally posted by delibandit
Do any of you on here even know what "internal" is? There's a lot of talk about internal this and internal that, but I seriously doubt that most of you even understand it.

do tell than.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Vash
[B]Indeed.

What the **** do you mean the muscles don't shorten in TJ? If you move, one shortens, one lengthens! That is the ONLY way to move.

Is it? I'm pretty sure that the muscle can lengthen and contract at the same time aka eccentric contraction. The individual fibers may contract but the muscles itself gets longer. Do you dispute this fact? You're the personal trainer.

Alas. **** on you. I am right, you are wrong.

Thus have I spoken, thus do it be. []

Is your name really Charleton Heston?

[Fu-Pow]

Weight training of any kind can be counter productive to developing certain characteristics of the "internal" martial arts. And I'm not only talking about pumping iron only. On the other hand, certain types will not be harmed by, in fact can benefit from it. So what is the point of even discussing/arguing about it? If a teacher says you should/shouln't do some kind of training, he probably has more information to work with than someone who has never even seen you. [/B]

I think that a general conditioning program (done the right way) can help whatever martial art you do. Push ups, sit ups, pull ups, pistols, sprinting, etc.

However, there are certain exercises that are so fundamentally opposed to the body priniciples that you are trying to develop that they harm rather than help your development.

In Taiji you want to be "through." That means that gravity transfers smoothly and evenly through your entire structure. From the top of your head to the small bones of your feet to your middle finger.

Taiji is one of the few arts that has this level of "throughness." And it is a requirement for Taiji to work effectively.

When you introduce excess tension through weight training. When you purposefully resist and incoming force (ie the weight) and do not transfer that weight through your entire structure then you are creating subtel points of tension and blockage into your body structure. If you are pushing against a person with high internal skill they will listen and "find" that blockage and exploit it. (If I personally knew how to exploit it then I wouldn't still be taking classes.)

I know this from first hand experience. I have 8 years invested in Wai Jia martial arts. Many consider CLF to be a very relaxed art. However, compared to Taiiji it is very tense. When pushing with my teacher he constantly finds points of tension (usually in my legs) and finds a way to knock me up, over or back.

Vash brings up an interesting point about everyday activities being like weight training. To some extent that is true. However, true Taiji masters are doing Taiji in their everyday activiites. They are using the minimum of effort to do everyday activities.

As it has been explained to me by teacher :In Nei Jia training first you learn to deal with your own body weight. To align your structure, release all tension and blockages and become "song" or relaxed. You develop Peng Jin or "inflated energy." Only when you have mastered that do you add anything extra like a Taiji ball or heavy Weapon.

At that point you are not creating blockages by lifting something heavy. You are "floating" the heavy object on this Peng energy. You are still Song on the outside. The weight transfers all the way through your structure, through your bones and tendons and into the ground.

Based on this knowledge I think that weight training could be detrimental to development early on and therefore I do not recommend it as an adjunct to Taiji training.

For other external martial arts it shouldn't be as much of a problem and would actually help your kung fu.

Peace.

[Vash]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Is it? I'm pretty sure that the muscle can lengthen and contract at the same time aka eccentric contraction. The individual fibers may contract but the muscles itself gets longer. Do you dispute this fact? You're the personal trainer.

Indeed, it is. Contraction, as you pointed out, does not equal shortening. But a muscle cannot take up less space without contraction. Even if I have someone else move my forearm nearer to my humerus, whilst I remain completely without muscular tension, the triceps will still lengthen and the biceps will still shorten.

Is your name really Charleton Heston?

No, it's Charlton Heston, bich.