Instructor qualification question

[Knifefighter]

How many hands-on, in-person hours did your instructor spend with the instructor who taught him WC?

If you are an instructor, how many hands-on, in-person hours have you spent with your WC instructor?

[Ultimatewingchun]

I would calculate that I have spent more than 200 hours altogether with William Cheung - in a hands on, in person atmosphere.

Have no idea how many hours he spent with Yip Man - quite a bit though, I'm sure.

Also spent at least 400 hours of actual private classtime with Moy Yat, previous to my training with William Cheung.

And again - have no idea how many hours Moy Yat spent with Yip Man.

[Phil Redmond]

I'm not sure how much personal time Moy Yat got with Yip Man. Duncan Leung got private lessons but I don't know for how long. Alan Lee got private lessons also. William Cheung went to Yip Man's school during class hours and lived and trained in Yip Man's house for over 3 years so I would assume many hours. Yeah, I know 'many' isn't a number

As for me with Moy Yat I can't count the hours but way less than Victor. With Lee Moy Shan maybe 50, Duncan Leung/Alan Lee maybe 100. With Alan Lamb 100+(?) Henry Leung, over 2000. (I worked in his restautant and we lived in the same apartment building in Queens.) With William Cheung 500-600+ (and I'm not counting seminars). This is just off the top of my head. If I have to edit these hours I will.
PR

[duende]

Conservatively speaking... I've spent around 3000 hours of classtime with GM Gee. And that's not counting seminars or private lessons. And there are quite a few students who spend more time with him than I.

Kung Fu is very hard work as you all know. We have a saying... the mind understands... the body knows.

It takes a long time to both understand it in your head, and own it in your hands.

[t_niehoff]

In my view, how many thousands of hours one spent with their instructor(s) isn't very significant (although it does make me wonder how dense a person is to need to spend that much time getting instruction!) -- it's not how much time you spend training, how much time you spend with your instructor, how much time you have been practicing WCK, etc. Quantity is not the issue. Quality is. The quality of one's training, which is reflected by the quality of one's own WCK fighting skill (which doesn't come from one's instructor).

A good boxer doesn't talk about how much time he spent getting instruction on boxing; he knows that his skill came from how much time he put into quality training: sparring, conditioning, etc. And he won't even talk about that -- because the issue is never "how much time" but what he can do. Same with any fighter. Frankly, I think folks use the "quantity" claims when they have no "quality" proof.

I don't care how much time my sigung spent with my sifu -- all I care about is whether my sifu can help me produce results. Again, it all comes down to results.

BTW, it doesn't (or shouldn't) take a long time to develop good skill in WCK (put it into your head and hands); if it does that means your method of training is not effective. Once again, results tell.

[Phil Redmond]

Terence, you asked the question and your question was answered. We didn't know you had a hidden agenda. You say it doesn't matter but I'll ask anyway. How much personal time have you had with your Sifu? Quailty time with a Sifu should count for something right?
PR

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Quantity is not the issue. Quality is." (Terence)

QUANTITY...(when it's a significant amount)...has a QUALITY all it's own.


"The quality of one's training, which is reflected by the quality of one's own WCK fighting skill (which doesn't come from one's instructor)." (Terence)


DON'T KNOW about that...the quality of one's fighting skill is often DIRECTLY related to the training skills of your instructor.


"...the issue is never 'how much time' but what he can do. (A boxer) (Terence)


AGAIN...the amount of time spent getting quality instruction is very important in determining what he can do.


"I don't care how much time my sigung spent with my sifu -- all I care about is whether my sifu can help me produce results. " (Terence)


AND THE AMOUNT of time my sifu spent with my sigung can directly reflect upon how much positive results I get. (If he spent 10 hours with my sigung - I clearly won't be getting the same results than if he had spent 110).

Now I agree that there will come a point of diminishing returns on what one learns by continuing to spend time with their sifu...but this typically will only come after a very significant amount of time was spent with him in the first place.

And the other factor to consider is that some students will learn quicker than other students...but again...there still has to be a significant amount of time spent with your instructor for this to occur.

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Terence, you asked the question and your question was answered. We didn't know you had a hidden agenda. You say it doesn't matter but I'll ask anyway. How much personal time have you had with your Sifu? Quailty time with a Sifu should count for something right?
PR

Just a quick comment to note that Terrence didn't start this thread, Knifefighter did.

[duende]

I think if one wants to truly become a PROFESSIONAL martial artist. BOTH quality and quantity of time matter. If I wanted to just be a good fighter I could learn just the san sao portion of the system...


Terence, did you not spend thousands of hours getting your education to become a lawyer??? Are you saying you'd be a better lawyer without spending those years in law school??? Perhaps I'd agree with you if all you want to be is just an ambulance chaser lawyer in St. Louis. But if you want to become a corporate lawyer in NY or SF you gotta put in the time.

Perhaps you just want to be the equivalent of an ambulance chaser in your WCKF? That's your decision.

I think most people would be honored to spend more time with their Sifu/Instructor, but can't due to time or logistical constraints.

FWIW going to class 3, 4, 5 times a week really isn't that much if you're really training.



Like I said in my original post it takes time for the knowledge to transfer from your brain to your body. In KF you have to go through the various seasons of learning until ultimately you and your KF our one. You own it, don't have to think about it.... it is YOUR nature.

You can build a strong bridge out of mortar and bricks, but don't go trying to walk across it until the mortar has had time to dry.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
In my view, how many thousands of hours one spent with their instructor(s) isn't very significant Quantity is not the issue. Quality is.

It should be both. Quality comes from quantity, although quantity does not guarantee quality.

Originally posted by t_niehoff
The quality of one's training, which is reflected by the quality of one's own WCK fighting skill (which doesn't come from one's instructor).

Since many people in WC don't have a true test of quality in terms of testing themselves against others outside of their own schools, the quantity of time spent with a good instructor might be the next best indicator.

Originally posted by t_niehoff
A good boxer doesn't talk about how much time he spent getting instruction on boxing; he knows that his skill came from how much time he put into quality training: sparring, conditioning, etc. And he won't even talk about that -- because the issue is never "how much time"

Very true, but he will have an easy time figuring out how much time he has spent with a quality coach and usually it will be a pretty significant amount of time

Originally posted by t_niehoff
BTW, it doesn't (or shouldn't) take a long time to develop good skill in WCK (put it into your head and hands); if it does that means your method of training is not effective. Once again, results tell.

I'm not talking about being an effective fighter, per se. I'm talkng about teaching. It takes a much longer time to be an effective teacher than it does to be an effective fighter.

[Knifefighter]

If the average student goes to class three times per week and trains for two hours per session for 50 weeks per year, this comes out to about 300 hours per year.

At this rate, how many years would it take for this person to learn the entire WC system and be able to teach in an effective manner?

Two years? That would be 600 hours
Three years? 900 hours
Five years? 1500 hours.

I think it would be reasonable for a person to expect to have their instructor to have had a minimum of 1500 hours of hands on instruction under his belt (unless the training is free). For me personally, I'd expect at least 2000 to 3000 hours.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Sandman2[Wing Chun]
Just a quick comment to note that Terrence didn't start this thread, Knifefighter did.

Oops, my bad I meant to type Knifefighter.
sorry Terence.
PR

[t_niehoff]

Duende wrote:

I think if one wants to truly become a PROFESSIONAL martial artist. BOTH quality and quantity of time matter. If I wanted to just be a good fighter I could learn just the san sao portion of the system...

**Anyone can be a professional martial artist -- all they need to do is take money for teaching. Lots of that going around. But I agree that it takes -- or should take -- a lot to be a competant profesional teacher. Actually having fought superior fighters would be part of that.

Terence, did you not spend thousands of hours getting your education to become a lawyer??? Are you saying you'd be a better lawyer without spending those years in law school??? Perhaps I'd agree with you if all you want to be is just an ambulance chaser lawyer in St. Louis. But if you want to become a corporate lawyer in NY or SF you gotta put in the time.

Perhaps you just want to be the equivalent of an ambulance chaser in your WCKF? That's your decision.

**Becoming a skilled fighter or coach (a physical activity) doesn't involve the same things as becoming a "professional", like a physician or an attorney. For one thing, we are required to prove we actually have some competance, and we can't claim we got our diploma from some secret source.

I think most people would be honored to spend more time with their Sifu/Instructor, but can't due to time or logistical constraints.

FWIW going to class 3, 4, 5 times a week really isn't that much if you're really training.

**Whatever.

Like I said in my original post it takes time for the knowledge to transfer from your brain to your body.

**Sometimes you can spend a life time and not have that happen. While some others are getting it in a few years.

In KF you have to go through the various seasons of learning until ultimately you and your KF our one. You own it, don't have to think about it.... it is YOUR nature.

**I guess good fighters don't do that?

You can build a strong bridge out of mortar and bricks, but don't go trying to walk across it until the mortar has had time to dry.

**Theoreticians always have excuses why their mortar hasn't dried.

[t_niehoff]

Victor, Phil,

I'm sure you both got loads from all the time you spent with your various sifu -- my point is just that IMO and IME WCK is a fairly simple method with relatively few stategic, tactical, and technical aspects and as such, to learn them doesn't take much time. On the other hand, developing skill using these things is extremely difficult and takes a great deal of intense training. That sort of training doesn't come from our sifu but from ourselves.

In my view, a good instructor should just give their student the fundamentals and then get out of the way. And then give them a pointer or two to help them when they run into problems. Anything else actually harms the student and their development.

[duende]

**Becoming a skilled fighter or coach (a physical activity) doesn't involve the same things as becoming a "professional", like a physician or an attorney.



WRONG! Typical naive street fighter mentality. Go tell that to your UFC fighter who spends hours upon hours studying the science of combat.

Heck just turn on your tv and listen to the way Couture and Liddell teach and discuss the art of fighting on SpikeTV. Stupid show, but those guys are no street fighters!

Terence... you're the only theoretician here. No proof, no walk, just alot of silliness.

BTW, How come you won't tell us how many hours you've spent training with your Sifu??

Truth hurts huh!