the need for the existence of evil..

[FuXnDajenariht]

i just want some thoughts on this. my cousin and i had a 3 hour debate not too long ago about the meaning for existence.....among other things . the end of the conversation settled on the subject of good and evil. he came to the conclusion that evil needs to exist in the world. that there can't be balance in the universe without it. that its an inseparable part of human nature.

what do you think it exists for? what are the causes? if its part of human nature is free will precluded? or is the entire idea of good and evil subjective? etc... etc... on and on...

i would give some background but i dont wanna affect the replies. that and i was stoned to the gills.. my memory about exactly what was said is foggy.. lol so start it on a clean slate.

post any thoughts you have.

[Mr Punch]

I don't believe in Evil.

that's not to say I don't think some acts aren't evil, I do, but to say that i do not believe anyone is driven by some malignant force, energy or anything other than human emotion and electro-chemical reactions within the nervous system.

Ultimately I don't think it's a necessary construct to help with our understanding of why people do bad things, in fact I think it usually obscures our understanding with dualism and polarisation contributing to a cycle of prejudice and divisiveness. It blames a mythical 'force', an anthropomorphism of usually a causally explicable behaviour. This cause yet more attacks on the surface of behaviour; too much focus on the outcome and blame, and not enough on cause and responsibility for ensuring that the chances of such acts occurring again are minimized.

I also think your sig is nonsense! I don't think the 'common human' is many of those things... I don't credit the 'common human' with as much intelligence, nouse or foresightedness!

[joedoe]

If you think of it from the point of view of free will, then evil is a necessary option, otherwise you do not have any choice other than to do good.

[FuXnDajenariht]

Originally posted by Mat

I also think your sig is nonsense! I don't think the 'common human' is many of those things... I don't credit the 'common human' with as much intelligence, nouse or foresightedness!

lol! there song lyrics actually

from a death metal band if that says anything. ''they're'' not exactly known for songs about roses and butterflies. mostly perpetual red letter moments....

the lyrics do actually have a point or a message to put across. but its done in a self deprecating, misanthropic fashion like most bands in that style of music. what genre conventions dictate basically...

and thanks for the reply. anyone else have any thoughts to add?

[rubthebuddha]

i don't buy the good vs. evil thing. i do buy good vs. bad. i basically evaluate things on a "good for myself/others" vs. "bad for myself/others" scale and then make a decision on whatever's validity/necessity/etc.

[Toby]

Originally posted by FuXnDajenariht
lol! there song lyrics actually

from a death metal band if that says anything.

Lol! I was gunna say reminds me of something Morbid Angel might write after I read Mat's post and before I read yours. Well, intersperse some little-known occult references and it might be Morbid Angel ...

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by joedoe
If you think of it from the point of view of free will, then evil is a necessary option, otherwise you do not have any choice other than to do good.

That's exactly typical of the nonsense that is dualism!

There are more than two options! Free will is freedom to do A or B...? What about L? R? X or Y?!

FuX
lol! there song lyrics actually

Yeah I'd worked that out! Having been a stalwart listener and writer/singer of punk back in the day...! Nothing else would be so trite!!!

[FuXnDajenariht]

its from my favorite band. meshuggah.

i love morbid angel too \m/

[FuXnDajenariht]

Originally posted by Mat
1) That's exactly typical of the nonsense that is dualism!

There are more than two options! Free will is freedom to do A or B...? What about L? R? X or Y?!



2) Yeah I'd worked that out! Having been a stalwart listener and writer/singer of punk back in the day...! Nothing else would be so trite!!!

1) it depends on what your definition of good and evil(bad) is i believe. your decision will either effect you or another person positively or negatively. regardless of the means.



2) yea aint it great! i move away from the more extreme stuff as i get old.

[Brad]

It's way too late for me to be seriously thinking about this subject, but I'll try to insert my two cents in anyway(I'm just not going into a bunch of details :P).

I think "evil" only exists in human beings and isn't necesary(as far as continued existance of the world). I think it's more of a man made thing brought into existance by free choice. So I guess in that sense, evil(or the potential for evil) has to exist in order for true freedom of choice to exist... but it doesn't mean you have to bring it about :P

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings.. (the following represents my personal perspective and not intended to be an assertion of "cosmic truth")

There is no "good/evil".. only consequences and our arbitrary labels of desirability.. Good/evil are contrived values that satisfy changing standards.. good in one culture may be bad in another..

It is two sides of the same coin.. too much time spent analyzing and judging good/evil conflicts with simple response to a situation based on one's established value system.. conflicts over the perspectives of good/evil are essential to empower the concept..

Analysis of consequences and actions that either promote chaos or harmony are foundational to my personal philosophy.. Was Hitler "evil"? in the broader scope of consequences, his actions caused the world to unite under a common cause, to state a principle that is being challenged again today.. his "evil" may have spawned a greater "good"..

Freewill.. has no dependency on the notions of "good/evil", it simply means we choose our own destiny.. and no choice is still a choice.. we cannot blame our situation on others, we each choose our station in life.. we will choose to create our own way, or we will choose to let others do it for us.. either way we "choose"..

"Give me liberty or give me death", a radical choice by Patric Henry, but one with consequences that have reshaped human perspectives of their worth.. With that choice, and similar choices by others, came war, death and difficult times.. Bad?.. With that choice there emerged a new Nation founded on the notion of freedom and self-determination.. Good?.. who knows, the consequences are still rippling through civilization.. and the current US administration may taint the US concept.. but, that's another story..

Be well..

[The Willow Sword]

This is a Mysterious world we live in,,and not all of those mysteries can be explained. of course it doesnt mean that if it cannot be explained in the scientific terms we cling to so desperately,,that it is illusion or not real.

you have to be able to "see" beyond the perspective of your "doing"s in the world and look beyond that scope for it is a minute aspect of this mysterious and wonderful world we live in.

Now as for there being a "NEED" to have evil. I have always believed that "Evil" is inherent in the minds and hearts of men,,and so is "good" ... it is the age old struggle that human beings force on themselves to make them more "self important" and "superior" to the world around them. Man vs Man,, Man Vs Nature Man Vs Animal and finally the most difficult struggle we force ourselves into, Man vs Himself.
I also believe that the mind is very powerful,,and if a large mass of people who consiously and subconsiously believe in something such as the concept of evil being an intelligent being or entity(ie:the devil) or good (ie: god or whatever) that the collective consiousness gives those thoughts power,,and thus makes it real for themselves,,,,and since a good portion of the world believes in these concepts in their many forms,,they in turn make it "REAL" for themselves. they all share in the same "neurosis" as i like to call it.
Creation in my opinion has been humankinds greatest achievement,,and existing within that creation has been the animal kingdoms greatest hardship and yet they live harmoniously in those creations,,they adapt and live or they suffer and die,,just as human kind does in the face of the religions we create for ourselves to give ourselves self worth and meaning,,those "evils" that we think about and question emerge out of these things.

As for the balance of things,, "evil cannot exist with out good",,or you cant have one without the other,,,,these concepts are blind ones to me and they lock us in a constant pattern of chaos,,they are trappings of the mind,,and truly have prevented us from evolving past these mindsets that i have seen that justify the killings of mass amounts of people and so on and so forth.

religion is our greatest failure as a species of being in my opinion,,yet another trapping of the mind. however i do not totally condemn the ideas,,for the ideas of what is and what shall never be can be changed and re thought and constantly questioned,,,the beliefs are the major downfall,,those beliefs that many think are so concrete and right,,just as science seeks to solidify that which can be seen touched felt tastes and in some cases,,comprehended,,,have contributed to most of the conlficts and struggles we go through as a species that i feel we should not be struggling with,, those conflicts that we then turn into "EVIL" as a result of our frustrations and conflicts.

PEACE,,,TWS

[Kristoffer]

''..Without evil there can be no good so it must be good to be evil somethiiiiimes..''

- Satan

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Mat
That's exactly typical of the nonsense that is dualism!

There are more than two options! Free will is freedom to do A or B...? What about L? R? X or Y?!

There must be a choice to do good or evil for our choices to mean anything; for free will to exist. I don't think it's just an "A" or "B" option. All options that may be available exist in degrees of good or bad, with no choice (or at least the majority of the cchoices) being truly good or truly evil. That’s where the moral relativism arguments come into play. Some choices may be better to some, worse for others.

As long as man exists, there will be things defined as good and things defined as evil.

[red5angel]

What is this evil you speak of exactly? why do you and your brother get to determine what is evil or that it exists?