Traditional forms training. (especially knifefighter)

[count]

Forms are NOT a method of training or learning to fight. If you forum guys and gals think so it is because you haven't learned yet or your teachers never did. Traditionally forms are learned as a method of passing on the history and flavor of the system.

Traditional training obviously has different methods of fight training. Training for strength, power, speed, endurance, overall conditioning come from specific training, not forms. (Feel free to discuss these.) Fighting within the context of the class, outside the class with others, in tournaments and competitions are also part of the training.

Some commercial schools probably have a problem with this either because of insurance liability or just keeping students who would otherwise walk away from the hard work and pain of learning martial arts. If all you are learning is forms, you will not be able to learn martial arts.

And don't get me started on health blah, blah, blah. Being active is healthy but their is nothing else healthy about learning or training martial arts.

[Yum Cha]

Would you agree to the extension of your idea that forms are the tools, fighting is the craftsmanship?

[Pork Chop]

count has single palm changed the correct into unconsciousness

[SPJ]

How we practice;

1. Perfection and intensity.

The drill or the practice of Gong Fa or Lian Gong.

This is the dreaded word.

You repeat the same punch or kick with and without bags over and over 100 times, 250 times in a row from 25 min to 45 min or more.

I was asked to walk in Ba Gua circle back and forth for 25 min, 45 min or 1 hour and half and yes everyday.

The moves are drilled over and over till perfection. And every single time has be right with full intent and power.

The props are usually destroyed before the drills are over.

2. Realtime response

Spar only with one technique learned at a time. The teacher or the training partner will attack in all ways to get you, you are allowed to use only one technique. This way you are forced to think about all the possibilites or potential apps of a singel move. I would maneuver in all ways to make the move workable. Most of the time, I was avoiding or maneuvering till the time and opportunity occurs and done.

3. Foundations

The drills to perfection. The study of apps. They both come hand in hand. It is the root of your fighting skills.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Yum Cha
Would you agree to the extension of your idea that forms are the tools, fighting is the craftsmanship?

If I understand count correctly, forms would be the book or the video that catalogs the various techniques. Practicing the forms would have nothing to do with fighting, other than for remembering the techniques of the system.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by count
Forms are NOT a method of training or learning to fight.Traditionally forms are learned as a method of passing on the history and flavor of the system.

If this is the case, wouldn't that make them pretty antiquated and inefficient in these days of digital cameras and word processing?

[SPJ]

I have nothing against the forms.

It is only a piece of the puzzle.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by count
Traditionally forms are learned as a method of passing on the history and flavor of the system.

If this is the case, how do new techniques fit in? And how would you get rid of old ones that have been replaced by better ones?

[SPJ]

Tai Ji Quan used to be called old 3 cuts or Lau San Dao.

In the classics, there are documents or theories of 13 postures.

Tai Ji is a continuous boxing or Chang Quan and consists of 13 postures.

Which means there are only 13 moves.

General Cheng Wang Ting, a Ming general retired after Qing takeover. Tai Tzu Chang Quan was used to drill Ming's palace guards and army.

Based on TZCQ and emphasizing silk reeling or Chan Si. He compiled Chang Quan 108 forms, Pao Zui or cannon fist 2 forms etc.

Chen Chang Xing then combined and shortened all these drilling forms into Lao Jia Yi Lu and Pao Zui Er Lu. There are long staff, Da Dao, straight swords, etc drilling forms.

They are forms for drilling.

Usually we have to take them apart into 6 or more segments.

Drill each move over and over.

[count]

I'm gonna hit this later when I get a minute, but as far as technology goes, we have dvd's, computers and such. I still tell my kid stories and encourage her reading books. I'm not trying to convert people to my way of life. Like I said in the other (ugh) thread...

Originally posted by count
Am I advocating for "traditional" martial arts here? That's a good question. I would say people should not get involved with learning them. They are dinosaurs which should have become extinct years ago. But for some reason, a handful of people have decided they want to keep this dinosaur alive. It makes me hopeful that the "state of kung fu" is not so crappy after all. It's the state of practitioners that may be weak and pathetic. That, and the exploding population and technological advancments on this planet making all this obsolete and insignificant.

I would have posted this in that thread, but there was no sense in beating a dead Horse.

[count]

Originally posted by Yum Cha
Would you agree to the extension of your idea that forms are the tools, fighting is the craftsmanship?

Hands and feet are tools. Bags and weights are tools. Forms are nothing but a collection of techniques put together. If you want to use the techniques, I suggest doing them in the air isn't going to help much.

[count]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
If this is the case, how do new techniques fit in? And how would you get rid of old ones that have been replaced by better ones?

Well, I'm not sure there are new techniques. Maybe new methods or strategy of using them. But as far as my personal training, forms are changed and modified over time I guess. Whole new systems evolve from older ones. But anyway, I get your point.

[SPJ]

The moves and forms, how they come about:

This is a 2 way street.

1. Theory first;

Some Chinese boxing methods have theories first, such as Xing Yi theory by general Yuet Fei, Tai Ji theory even longer before there are boxing sets.

The theory evolved over time. The boxing moves based on theories took root. More moves are added on over time.

2. Incorporation of theory;

In 7 stars mantis, if you have the 16 methods, Gou Luo Diau Cai, Beng Tza Gua Pi, Zhan Nian Tei Kao, San Zhuan Teng No, your boxing moves may be called 7 stars Tang Lang.

Over the years, northern boxers adapt or incoporate these methods into their own boxing moves. There are over 400 forms thruout Northern China. 7 stars become the most diverse and popular school of CMA.

3. Practice first.

Theory developed later or summarized later.

[Indestructible]

We have to fight through our forms, but we also break each individual fighting motion down and drill them seperately as well. Forms should preserve the art aspect of your style, but they should also have specific fighting application.

[count]

SPJ,
I hear you. I totally understand what you're talking about. I would throw out some information about pai da training or sand bag training from piqua that comes from traditional methods too. I think you'll need to give more information though. Unless people here understand your Mandrin with the Taiwanese accent, I don't think they'll really get the jist of what your putting out.
Great stuff though.