Traditional forms training. (especially knifefighter)

[SPJ]

KF;

To make a long story short.

Forms are not outdated. They are uptodated by new moves and theory with the practitioners.

1. Chen Fa Ke added more small circles and folding or Hui Zhuan. The forms from Chen Chang Xing become Xing Jia.

2. Cheng Ting Hua studied Shuai Jiao first. He was the best and favorite student of Dong Hai Zhuang. Cheng incorporated Shuai Jiao into Ba Gua Zhang.

3. Yi Fu incorporated Shaolin Lo Han and Tang Tui into Ba Gua.

etc

[count]

Originally posted by Indestructible
We have to fight through our forms, but we also break each individual fighting motion down and drill them seperately as well. Forms should preserve the art aspect of your style, but they should also have specific fighting application.

LOL, I might say duh, but I get your point. I would say we don't even learn a form until we learn basic usage and drills followed by 2-man drills and applying techniques on the fly. But that's really a teaching method more than a traditional or modern method. In traditional forms there are no empty movements. Every movment represents a technique.

[Shaolinlueb]

.5

how many times do we have to discuss this? forms also teach your body how to move and generate power.

[count]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
.5

how many times do we have to discuss this? forms also teach your body how to move and generate power.

Sorry for bringing up a topic again, but obviously from your opinion, it hasn't been discussed enough.

There are many ways to build structure, power, and speed. Moving your hands around in the air is not one of them. A technique has to be drilled hundreds of times against resistance. (SPJ already pointed this out) How many times do you practice your form to get the same results? Will you always step in the same direction if someone is moving around you? You have to train footwork. For endurance, timing, against an opponent. How will a form teach you the proper angles, timing, and usage in various conditions? No, you'll have to convince me forms can accomplish that. Just saying something you heard isn't going to cut it.

[mantis108]

Hi Count,

Well, forms are like living fossils of a system, which is a bit of an oxymoron. It provides crucial clues to how the systems onces were in a "dynamic " way. More importantly, it reflects the cultural bearings and worldview of the system. In Kung Fu's case, the forms must reflect 24 essentials (4 attacks, 8 methods, 12 dynamic forms/shapes). Now there are myriad variations and combinations of the 24 essential; therefore, you have myriad of styles.

The problem is that nowadays both teachers and students of TCMA have difficulties in transmitting and grasping these concepts because there are planty of astrologists (those who would theorize and observe the stars) but not enough astronauts (those who would actually land on and touch the stars). Some just ignore the 24 essential and do whatever they please and call their system Kung Fu.

Through the forms we can see evolution of Kung Fu easily back to Ming dynasty (1500s). But I don't quite agreed that it is entirely just for show. Form should be pragmatic in nature. Nowadays there are plenty, but not all styles, would take artistic license over pragmatic function. La vita loca, what can we say?

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Vash]

I practice forms. A lot. Hella much.

I defended myself several times against unwanted and uncool aggression.

Therefore, I rule.

*****es on already dead and smelly horse*

[Knifefighter]

Count-

Sounds like you and I are on the same page regarding the functionality of forms.

You can see, based on just the responses so far, a sampling of how many kung fu people believe in the practicality of doing forms to develop fighting ability.

I rest my case.

[count]

Getting there knifefighter.

Mantis108,

LOL, living fossels.
*Don't ever touch 64 palms!* With your taoist nature you'll spend the rest of your life going around in circles.

[gfx]

The way I see it

Why memorizing math equations and such if they are all recorded in books? This is actually arguable, since a lot of students don't memorize the equations, and instead depend on cheat sheets in exams.

Simularly, I see the new recording mediums as cheat sheets. there's nothing wrong with using them, but it really doesn't hurt to be able to memorize forms and such. Sometimes, forms are down right convenient. What happens when you don't have access to DVD players, VCRs etc? Just go through the form, pull put a techniques and two and drill.

Forms seems to be a very effecient way to memorize/transmiit knowlege. Images on screen are just images, One still need to learn the movements before they can even start to drill them, but forms hit two birds with one stone. Not only you memorize the contents, you also get used to the movements at the same time.

It is however, just a training tool. Is it possible for people to become good at fighting without learning them? Absolutely. Just like there are people who can become great artists with no academical training. Does that make academical methods invalid?

It's unhealthy to be too single sided with anything. If we can understand the reasoning, and the original purpose of forms, then it's not difficult to understand its values. In the same logic, it also makes the stupidity of people that do only forms very clear.

[Sim Koning]

sigh... yet another subject that has been debated to death.


Forms are primarily a coordination exercise. You do not really need to learn forms to remember techniques. Styles like BJJ and Submission wrestling have just as many techniques and yet they are able to remember them in a fight, where it counts. Forms are not for learning how to fight, they are for fluidity of motion, agility, flexibility etc... The low stances build leg strength and endurance, the tightly chambered fists at the sides promote good posture. Many of the southern forms have isometric and breathing exorcises built in to them. There are other ways to train these things, but forms have roled them all in to one exorcise.

Forms are not necessary to become a good fighter, but they are an art form in and of themselves and enjoyable to learn for many martial artists including myself. The weapons forms are very fun to learn. They have a beauty and artistic quality much like dancing.

I have found that most people that have a great disdain for forms or katas are not very good at them to begin with. You can be very bad at forms and still become a good fighter though, but that does not mean that people who choose to practice them are wasting there time.

[scotty1]

The form is a part of our system, but it is not assigned a disproportionate amount of importance, assuming you want to learn to fight. In fact, if a student wanted to be trained up for a full-contact competition in 6 months time, form would not be a priority in what he he was taught.

However, I do find that when I put a few minutes into doing the form each day, I find free-wrestling 'easier'. The movement, the shape is there. So it's not essential, but I find it smooths me out a bit.



Also, there ARE the health benefits, which contribute indirectly to fighting ability. After a hard neigung conditioning session, the form is lovely...

PLUS, while it doesn't teach your body to generate power in the same ay hitting something does, it does help ingrain whole body movement, everything starting and finishing at the same time.

Not very well explained, but definitely something I have experienced.

[Becca]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Count-

Sounds like you and I are on the same page regarding the functionality of forms.

You can see, based on just the responses so far, a sampling of how many kung fu people believe in the practicality of doing forms to develop fighting ability.

I rest my case.

When you go t o school, you are taught to write. When you further your eduction, you are taught how to write like the bygone masters. This was not so everyone would write just like Hemmingway, but to help teach a concept. It is usuall more effective to learn from experience.

How do you teach this lesson to a group of people after the fighter they are trying to emulate is dead? Especially if he/she died long before the students were even a twinkle in thier daddy's eye? Writtings are nice, but they don't show you what it looked like. Videos could show you, but not correct it if you get it wrong. There for, a video or a book would help you to remember, or to mimic the style you are trying to learn. But I think we all argree that looking at a book about punching will not make one a better puncher. Shadow boxing can help, though.

[Kaitain(UK)]

I do my form because I enjoy it. No need to justify it beyond that.

If I only wanted to know how to fight, I wouldnt do forms. I'd spend all my time hitting a bag and a sparring partner using as few techniques as possible. It wouldn't be an art, but it would work in a fight.

Pretty sad waste of time to spend the last 20 years training martial arts just to fight and then to walk away from them whenever possible. I'd feel like I'd wasted my time if the only benefit I got from my training was being able to fight.

Health - interesting that you would think that there's no health benefit to a form. So opening the joints, moving through your full range of movement, relaxing into your body and removing tension and concentrating on pure movement isn't of benefit? What about mentally - do you discount meditation as being useful to one's health? Spiritually? What about posture improvement? All of these things can be gained through core stability training, meditation, pilates, all kinds of different activities. I choose to get them through taiji.

Do I train to apply my taiji? Yes of course - I spar, I do heavy bag work, I do pad work.

Have I applied taiji in the real world (i.e. a fight)? Yes I have - and the most succesful times have been when I walked away without fighting.

Maybe I just have different goals.

[Sim Koning]

well said

[Kristoffer]

This is a form:

I start working on the heavy bag, and decide to drill my: ''two straight punch followed by low roundhouse''. And: ''jab, elbow, knee''

I drill these combinations for 20 min. each time with as much force I can manage, as fast and proper that I can while still controlling my balance.
This itself is a form. It's a number of techniques that is put in a combination or can be broken down to one movement. (just a knee attack, or just the jab). These techs aren't bad just because you do them in the air, but to teach the body how to do them correctly you have to spend time actually doing them - With bags or people. But if you only focus on kicking the bag you'r kick might become hard, but your balance might be p1ss poor. So by working on these movements over and over again, the techs will get better.

That's a form