Traditional forms training. (especially knifefighter)

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by count
Damn, nobody even pointed out flavor.

We had a BIG discussion on flavor and what it means last year. I think everyone is flavored out.

Flavor-Flav on a hype tip
Um ya hype drink, come take a big sip
Um in position, you can't play me out da pocket
I'll take da dopest beat yougot and I'll rock-it
Like chocolate, even vanilla - chocolate, strawberry, saperella
Flavors are electric - try me - get a shock-a
Didn't I tell you to leave Flavor Flav alone knock-a
A clock on my chest proves I don't fess
I'm a clock-a, rock-a rockin' wit-da-rest
Flavor in da house by Chuck-D's side
Chuck got da Flavor-Flav don't hide
P.E. crazy, Crazy P.E. - makin' crazy loowies for the shoppin spree

[PangQuan]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Chinese boxing is a living thing...it adapted time and again to new weapons, techniques, and warfare tactics. So why all the sudden should it remain static?

Do you think Chinese boxing training from 5 C.E. looked anything like Chinese boxing training from 1805 C.E.? Which was more traditional?

The principles are solid. Remain true to them, and you have Chinese boxing, regardless of if you update the training methods.

Im not saying that change will not, or should not take place, I am just saying that the change will be a developement of certain practices not a removal. But what the hell, I think this is turning more into a ping pong game of spitting the same crap back and forth. We all know how we feel.

VIVA LA REVOLUTION!!! PARTY ON WAYNE!!! LIVE LONG AND PROSPER!!! oh and dont forget, SSAAAIIIIIYAAAAHH!!!

k im done now.

[tug]

The basis of the various styles of Ba Gua Zhang, and the practice all styles have in common, is the circle walk. The practitioner literally walks in a circle while holding various static postures with the upper body or while executing "palm changes" (short patterns of movement or "forms" which train the body mechanics and methods of generating power which form the basis of the styles' fighting techniques). All styles have a variation of a form known as the Single Palm Change. The Single Palm Change is the most basic form and is the nucleus of the remaining palm changes found in the Art. Besides the Single Palm Change, the other forms include the Double Palm Change and the Eight Palm Changes (also known variously as the Eight Mother Palms or the Old Eight Palms). These forms make up the foundation of the art of Ba Gua Zhang. Ba Gua Zhang movements have a characteristic circular nature, and there is a great deal of body spinning, turning, and rapid changes in direction. In addition to the Single, Double, and Eight Palm Changes, most but not all styles of Ba Gua Zhang include some variation of the Sixty-Four Palms. The Sixty-Four Palms include forms which teach the mechanics and sequence of the specific fighting techniques included in the style. These forms take the general energies developed during the practice of the Palm Changes and focus them into more exact patterns of movement, which are applied directly to a specific combat technique. In addition to the above forms and methods, most styles of Ba Gua Zhang include various two-person forms and drills as intermediate steps between solo forms and the practice of combat techniques.

Count, taken from this standpoint, I have to once again disagree with your original statement - that forms are not a way to learn to fight. Now, I am not saying that all you need are forms for true fighting technique, far from it. And I might even be convinced that forms might not be as important when it comes to real fighting (don't know about that one yet), but as it is for me, forms are where you start in TCMA, of which I am very fond. Forms are the basis of most, if not all TCMA, and without them, I believe one would be lost.

So now, the issue for me is the difference between MMA and TCMA, something that has and will continue to be debated to death here, there and everywhere. Maybe this is more specifically the difference you were trying to address? I don't know, but it seems that the general consensus at this point is - if you like your art, what it gives you and what it means to your life and survival, then by all means keep it up. There will always be discussion, differences of opinion and heated exchanges, but the one thing we all must fall back on, return to and be true to is ourselves.

[count]

Yo, Tug,
Now yer talkin my speak. I've read it before. Tim is one man and his opinions are his own. You feel free to interpret what he is saying to fit your argument. I can understand what he is saying since it is my primary style he's refering to. What I read here is there are

steps between solo forms and the practice of combat techniques.

Now that's what I'm talking about. But dude, start another thread or something if you have a point.

[tug]

Well, what he is saying just reaffirms my beliefs, but I chose to use his description because I could never be as articulate.

As for not having a point, what? My point is that I believe forms are just as important as sparring, conditioning and everything else that goes with studying an art. This is my belief, this is my point, feel free to have your own opinion, as we all have a right to.

[count]

No Bro,
I didn't say you "didn't have a point" at all. I understand your point. I only suggested starting another thread.


To be clear, Tim only wrote about a few points of interest to describe a style. There is much more. Obviously, it would be boring to a reader to hear about it. But the point is there are steps in between.

[SifuAbel]

To me its very simple. When BL started the whole "dead pattern" cliche, he was refering to practitioners who did not have flow or adaptability. They were stuck in the conventions of A following B as per their "style". This was directed especially to the mostly karate oriented american MA community. Which was doing the stop-hit one point sparing. It wasn't the pattern that was dead, but the use of it by the practitioners. Fighting with spontaneity is abstract but still draws on the bulk knowledge of your body.

You can be formless even if you practice forms. Its just another mode of conditioning. And a powerful one when done right.

Why is it so hard to distinguish the fighters from the non fighters? That is, after all, the only problem.

The problem isn't whether or not you do forms. Its whether or not you fight.

Most of what I have read above just seems like a snake eating its tail. Point , counter point, missing the point.

Humans may have evovled technologically but not bodily. On the whole, the super athlete is a tiny minority.There is no "evolution", no "modern", no "traditional", nothing new under the sun. Only what we percieve is new to ourselves. Everything and anything you have ever done bodily has been done before and in eon. fist, Kick , grab, throw, nothing. MMA? Pankration....... and even before that.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by PangQuan
Im not saying that change will not, or should not take place, I am just saying that the change will be a developement of certain practices not a removal.

Who mentioned a removal?

[tug]

It seems as if we may have hit on a vaguely perceivable "common ground". I guess I had not previously defined for myself those steps in between. I have always thought of studying or training as one entity, as a whole, and actually, because of this discussion, I am being forced to rethink the way I do things. Very interesting feeling.

Why would I want to start another thread? Aren't we still talking about the same thing? At any rate, I am enjoying this, thank you.

Most of what I have read above just seems like a snake eating its tail. Point , counter point, missing the point.

Maybe, but that's why we are here, to understand. That's all I am trying to do.

[count]

Good Tug,
I think (maybe stating the obvious)
class is for learning
home is for training
the world is for practice
time is for perfecting.

Can you describe what your classes are like?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Waidan
I like form training.... It gets chicks.

I hate to tell you this, but, if anything, it has the opposite effect.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
To me its very simple. When BL started the whole "dead pattern" cliche, he was refering to practitioners who did not have flow or adaptability. They were stuck in the conventions of A following B as per their "style". This was directed especially to the mostly karate oriented american MA community.

Actually, he was directing this more to the CMA community.

[PangQuan]

Some people watch TV, some watch movies, some play video games, some do drugs/drink, I like to do forms instead of all that crap. of course I do practicle sparring and techniques training as well, but I decided to remove myself from modern lazziness and practice forms instead. Its a matter of priority and love. I love my forms, I love to fight, why not do both, they both benefit my training. I however do not like to sport fight. So I dont get to many chances to actually fight. I used to be not so nice of a person when I was younger and always got in fights. Since I have begun my kung fu training, I have definately notice a difference that the forms have done with my hand/eye coordination, reaction time, and most importantly timing. Thats not to mention balance, stamina/endurance, peace, flexability, breathing correctly while in motion, etc... Yes you can gain much of this from other forms of training, but you get it from form training as well. Each subject noted above will be trained to a different degree depending on your methods, forms may train one area at a higher degree then other training methods while at the same time may train one aspect to a lower degree. It is about finding your harmony and balance.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Actually, he was directing this more to the CMA community.

The CMA comunity that wasn't really open to the US? The CMA community that was in the abject minority? Better said, what CMA community?

Don't tell me now that he wasn't talking about the state of U.S. MA at the time, that was 99.9% japanese styles. That spin won't turn.

At the time of the Long Beach demo it was very much CMA(and its ways) vs. JMA. And he started making these comments at that time. For the above reasons. ABOUT the MAJORITY of the schools here. Karate schools.

[count]

Well I'm not much of an historian off handedly. But personally, at the time I was more impressed and influenced by what Adam Hsu was writing in the CMA magazine's that were available to me in the late 60's and 70's. There were other greats who were openly teaching than too. Where I grew up in Chicago, I remember seeing Tai Chi Chuan being openly taught to American's as far back as the 50's and 60's. There were a few hardcore Chinese schools, of course it was more of a closed door policy than. Here in Los Angeles, Ark Wong had been teaching openly since the 30's.

But I give a lot of credit to Bruce for opening up the CMA community to the AMA population. I also give him a lot of blame for what the American's think about CMA. But he was a great businessman. Catering to American's drive. Maybe to that fast food mentality. Hey, I've got nothing against McDonald's Big Mac's. They can be really good when you scarf them down and surely they fill you up. But I'm pretty sure they aren't as good for your insides over time.