Traditional forms training. (especially knifefighter)

[Kaitain(UK)]

In Karate it would be called 'Waza' rather than "Kata" - they are distinct and different.

A waza is just a technique or set of techniques, a kata is training something more (principles of movement for instance)

I would call what you mentioned a technique drill - just different definitions I guess.

[Sim Koning]

@kristoffer

no... that's a kicboxing drill.

[count]

I'm starting to see a pattern here. the people who believe forms help you learn to fight, don't want to discuss it. Maybe you feel I insulted your methods? Maybe I pricked your bubble? I assure you, I did not mean to offend anyone. As you may already know, I train in "Traditional" Chinese Martial Arts" primarily for the past 30 years. I have had experience in martial arts from other countries, but my training follows traditional methods.

There are many aspects to my training. If all I wanted to do was fight professionally, I would obviously spend more time at the gym. Pumping weights, running, sparring. There is a obviously a difference in preparing for a career as a fighter and just learning to defend yourself should a situation arise.

Forms are as much a part of my training as anything else. At some point when I leave my teacher and go out and teach on my own, I will be teaching the system he taught me. But it's the method he taught me in that I believe in, not the forms he showed me.

Kristoffer,
I'm not talking about the difference between sets, forms, patterns. Even in the Chinese culture of learning they distinguish between Ta Lu and Forms. What most English speaking people think of a form is actually a number of forms strung together as a routine. You are correct that those combinations and combination training are forms. But when you move to the bag, the training becomes something else.

Kaitain(UK):
I think you know what I'm talking about, so I'll put it this way. "Traditional" training involves nei gung, chi kung, and wei gung. You can focus on these aspects in your standing and forms training, but they are not the primary purpose or result. If you want to open your joints, increase your flexibility, remove tension, do yoga. If you want to learn to fight there are other methods in traditional training that are for that. As far as spirituality, that's part of everyone's personal path. It takes a certain character to put so much time in something you hope to never use.

Becca,
If you want to write books or make movies, the important thing is to have the experience to tell about.

Sam,
Maybe debated to death, but as you can see, many people don't have an idea of why they learn forms. As I have said, and in agreement with you, there are many things you can take from forms, but their primary purpose is to pass on the history and flavor of someone's past lineage. I have found that people that have disdain for fighting as part of their training or the hard boring basic work necessary to learning martial arts, are to weak or not very good at it.

gfx,
I hear what you are saying (almost). You sound like an artist to me. There is a difference between understanding and being able to communicate something. Their is a difference when a person does a form who does not understand its basic meaning. It's important to make a personal expression, but it's empty without an having gone through the actual training.

[Kaitain(UK)]

Thanks for the reply Count - I just felt you were being a bit harsh.

Yoga sucks and you cant fight with it Health is a side effect of correct martial training - I strongly believe that. I took what you said to mean that there werent any health beenfits other than being active - I took issue with it

Too many smileys.

[Becca]

Originally posted by count
Becca,
If you want to write books or make movies, the important thing is to have the experience to tell about.

Lost me on this one? I was using the book/writting example, because forms at one time were the equivilant to text books. Pretty much all crafts were taught this way in illiterate sosieties. This didn't make the people dumb, they just didn't know how to read for one reason or another.

I'm not talking about the difference between sets, forms, patterns. Even in the Chinese culture of learning they distinguish between Ta Lu and Forms. What most English speaking people think of a form is actually a number of forms strung together as a routine. You are correct that those combinations and combination training are forms. But when you move to the bag, the training becomes something else.

You move the form to the bag and you get drills. This is like reading a chapter about how to fight form a modern book, going over it repetedly step by step with one's teacher, then going out and trying it on your own. Yes, this process can skip step one and even step two, but that doesn't meen everyone who doesn't skip those steps is actually deluding themselves about what they are doing. More like acknowledging were their roots are from.

[count]

Originally posted by Kaitain(UK)
Thanks for the reply Count - I just felt you were being a bit harsh.

Yoga sucks and you cant fight with it Health is a side effect of correct martial training - I strongly believe that. I took what you said to mean that there werent any health beenfits other than being active - I took issue with it

Too many smileys.

No Worries,
I just meant there is nothing healthy about getting beat up or hitting your body against hard things but of course traditional training covers more than that Sorry if I came off a bit harsh I hope it didn't make you to

[count]

Originally posted by Becca
Lost me on this one? I was using the book/writting example, because forms at one time were the equivilant to text books. Pretty much all crafts were taught this way in illiterate sosieties. This didn't make the people dumb, they just didn't know how to read for one reason or another.

I just meant whether you're writing a text book or a novel, if you don't write from your own experience, make it your own so to speak, it is empty and meaningless. As far as the way things were taught 100's of years before to an illiterate, one can only speculate. I'm guessing, if you can't spell, you can't write.

[Becca]

HEY! I spell phoeneticly, allright!

[Ray Pina]

I'm not a big fan of forms and I think Jess O, who just visted our class could understand why I feel that way.

Take taiji. How many people know the actual applications? .... I'll ask again, the actual applications?

So you have all these people doing a form real slow and calling it taiji. An application has to be tested against a resisting foe in order to truly understand it. And if you have the opportunity in your training to do that, why would you spend 45 minutes doing cloud hands back and forth when you could put gear on and use it against someone shooting in on your legs?

Well, you might do it to train keeping a straight back, an empty mind and circulate your energy .... Count I'm very surprised to hear that you don't find any health benefits associated with MA being that you play Ba Gua. Walking the circle slowly, holding the postures and twisting in, step by step, that gets my $hit running.

I've been doing that for like 10 minutes and then going right into San Ti ..... my stomach problem is gone, girls are saying my skin and hair is awesome -- whatever that means -- and life is generally much better.

I've learned a lot this past two months.

[tug]

.01 (on original post)


Well, if I may, I for one am sick and f@cking tired of this topic, which has become, as Vash-san said, a dead and smelly horse.

Either train or don't train. Don't like forms? Think they're useless?
Then get out of the way so I can get my work done. Ever hear of KINESIOLOGY? No? Look it up. This is what form work is for.

[Kristoffer]

Sim Koning

No, that's a form
And the techniques can be found in almost every traditional CMA, so I don't know why it would make it kickboxing.

count

I was trying to get my point across that a form is just any sets of movements, even if based on very simple techs like those I made up. Many people thinks forms are exotic weird techs that are to hard to pull of in a fight, when infact alot of forms contains VERY simple movements like - block, punch, knees etc etc.
I both agree and disagree on that it's something else when done with the bag. Is it not the same movements? Is it not the same techs?

[count]

Originally posted by tug
.01 (on original post)


Well, if I may, I for one am sick and f@cking tired of this topic, which has become, as Vash-san said, a dead and smelly horse.

Either train or don't train. Don't like forms? Think they're useless?
Then get out of the way so I can get my work done. Ever hear of KINESIOLOGY? No? Look it up. This is what form work is for.

Point, set and match. BTW, show me one place where I said I don't like forms or I think they're useless. But after 30 years of study in CMA and 16 years married to a Physical Therapist, I think I have a good idea of what exercise is all about. If you think you're getting it from doing your forms, than do your forms. But you are missing the point of your training and you're missing the point of this post.

BTW, Ray, I didn't say I did not find any health benefit either. Just that it is not the primary reason to train in martial arts. Just like forms are not the primary method of learning to fight. Glad your making progress and give my regards to Mr. Chan

[tug]

But you are missing the point of your training

No, I'm not. Form work is part of the curriculum. Everyone has their own reasons for doing what they do, usually because it makes them happy.

and you're missing the point of this post.

How so? My 2 cents, as they say.

For the record, my remarks were made as a general statement to whomever might read them, they were not intended for anyone in particular.

Point, set and match

You win!

[count]

Originally posted by tug

How so? My 2 cents, as they say.

The point is many people have commented on this forum and in recent threads in particular, what they think forms are for in their training. The point is some people mistakenly believe forms are a way to learn to fight. They are not.

For the record, my remarks were made as a general statement to whomever might read them, they were not intended for anyone in particular.

I thought the record was clear when your wrote,

Originally posted by tug
.01 (on original post)


Well, if I may, I for one am sick and f@cking tired of this topic, which has become, as Vash-san said, a dead and smelly horse.

Either train or don't train. Don't like forms? Think they're useless?
Then get out of the way so I can get my work done. Ever hear of KINESIOLOGY? No? Look it up. This is what form work is for.

If you weren't addressing the post or the topic, what else than? Who were you asking these questions, or are the only rhetoric you heard someone say and thought it fit your idea of what forms are for?

[Ray Pina]

Count, sorry, I noticed you clarified that point a little further up but only read your original post, some of the first page and then skimmed through the rest.

I'll give Master Chan a shout out for you. It's been a long time.

Yea, I've made some leaps and bounds especially in the past two months. I now understand what internal is, and its now a pleasure to do the standing where before it was torture and I've learned to regulate, my, uh, expenditures (lets call them).

All of this, combined with getting deeper into my master's art, it's really improved my fighting but I'm not .... well, I am getting antsy but I'm going to trust my teacher and wait. I won't lose again and put myself out there for ridule because I'm now associated with my master and his school and need to do things right. You've seen some of his stuff. When this crazy 30 year old who's not scared to fight gets that .... it should be interesting.

Hope all is well on your end.
Ray