Do we need to modify our forms? Or is tradition more important?

[gfx]

First, my question has the assumption that forms are used as a mental references of techniques and drills. ( And theory, if you really want to point it out )

I find a lot of the techniques in forms gives people the bad habit of dropping their hands. I always modify a technique when I pull it out of a form so the hands are always protecting the head in the proper guard (i.e boxing, kick-boxing). This makes me wonder, since our guard has changed in modern times, should forms, which is supposed to be a reflection of our techniques and theories, changed as well?

The reason behind the traditional "hand-beside-the-waist" poster is a reminant of lance techniques. Take a lot at lance postures, you are in a 6-4 stance, with the back-hand holds the end of the lance tightly onto your waist, while the front hand is extended in front of the body holding the body of the lance. Remove the lance from this picture, and you have a classic Chinese fighting guard. It's not hard to imagine why this is so. Lances were a very important part of Chinese militray since the very begining. Everything from power generation to structure are all derive from it.

However, in modern days, we have no need for lances anymore. Most people changed the old guard in fighting to the newer one. Only forms still stayed the same. Should we then change this? There are already changes in new forms that are taught. Take a look at the Chinese military and police form. ( 军警拳 ), the guards in it are all modern guards, as are the stances.

Then, should we change the traditional forms? Or should we um, stick to tradition?

[tug]

I suspect this has something to do with the other thread of similar topic, but an interesting question nonetheless.

It seems to me that this practice is already happening. From what I have heard and read, Sifu Ross and Darren Laur are two good examples.

I also think what you are saying is what B. Lee wanted from Jun Fan JKD, and it's what I am trying to achieve with my limited knowledge of KF, CQB, H2H and OK Kenpo. I believe I heard this here - "Take what works, discard the rest."

I wouldn't necessarily "discard" what doesn't work because one can never know exactly how the confrontation will play out, but it makes sense. On that note, what you are saying about "changing the traditional forms" is valid, if only because times change, but IMO only "change" it enough to make it work for yourself and/or the person you are instructing.

I myself prefer to stick with tradition, because without tradition you have utter chaos. Besides, isn't this where most MAs stem from, traditionally? Think about your stances. Where do they come from? Forms? For the most part, IMO. We all know the basis for a good fighter/MAist is a good...base. Or stance. Rooted. From the ground through the feet to the waist and out.

"If a man can't stand, he can't fight"

I hate that Terry Silver (?) said that in KK3, but it rings true.

[PangQuan]

I think, in reflection as to what a form represents, it is not necessary to change the form. The opening to "ready" stance is more symbolic than applicable (although there are applications for the movement). When you learn a form, particulary an advanced one, the opening is but a small part of the movements within the specific sequence you will be performing. Depending on your style and your form, the movements you practice will be varied within the strucure and applications, thus providing adequet practice of movements, be it defense, offense or both. The removal of the opening does nothing, but remove a long tradition. You can practice any form without any parts you feel to be "obsolete". I personally think that you dont need to remove this part of the form. Although it is largely in place for visual reasons, there is still application to this form. Excellent rib protector. As well as having your self ready for a groin protection. Leg lock on an opponent, the list really does go on. This is just my personal opinion on the subject.

[Ray Pina]

We do not need to modify forms. What needs to be done is change the entire mindset to martial arts training, its goals and end results.

MMA, San Da, Thai Boxing, Judo, E-Chuan etc, have already adressed this in terms of what they are looking for in a combat skill set.

That is the basic for a MARTIAL ART. That has to be done first otherwise all you are doing is baby sitting kids and giving adults a cardio workout.

After that, maybe your system ALSO adresses mental and physical health.

If forms comes into play as a means of adressing those goals, I guess that's each systems own business.

[gfx]

Panquan:

I find it interesting that you perceive your opening as something symbolic rather than functional. What is your ready stance? Is it just like a boxing ready stance? Or is it more stereotypically CMA, with arms extended infront of you, and sinking down into a 4-6 stance?

There are particular reasons why the modern guard is the way it is. That is to protect the head/body and fill up any holes that may occur. Now if you look at the more traditional way of doing things, i.e punching, kicking etc, the many holes that the modern guard tries to fill are there in plain sight. This kind of problem isn't just found in the ready stance, it permeates through almost all the traditional techniques. ( at least stricking wise ). We fight the way we train, when we start to rely on basic motor skills, it's these habitual movements that's going to make the difference between winning and losing.

Personally, I'm finding that my form practice has stopped contributing to my fighting ability. There are certain parts of my forms that is so polarly opposite to what I would do while sparring that, I'm certain that if I pull them off in sparring, i'll get hit every which way. I'm talking about Northern Long Fist by the way. What's interesting is that it's the styles with more modern-like guards and movements that have proven themselves as useful. i.e plumflower mantis. The only way I can make long fist work is to change a lot of the techniques, but then I start to question that whether or not I'm still doing long fist.

I understand the value that forms have on baiscs. However, I personally had to undergo quite a change in my movements to make a lot of things work. Now if I had done that from the begining...

I'm also questioning "tradition". Remember that CMA was stagnant under the Qing dynasty. Because public teachings was prohibited, different regions stopped sharing knowlege. It became ritualized, and became pretty. If we take a look at Ming dynasty ( That preceeds Qing, for those who are not sure ) training manuals, we see that their hands are, gasp, protecting their heads just as we do today. Their stances are high and mobile as well. Then what is more "traditional"?

[PangQuan]

I was reffering to the "hands beside the waist" example that was given. I also listed a few applications. For many it is symbolic because they do not use the applications. I have the feeling I was mistaken on what movement you were talking about. I was talking about the classic opening of the form with hands at waist, or upper ribs, depending on northern or southern style. As for my fighting ready stance. I generally take a low shaolin stance one hand high one hand mid/low very linear, exposing one leg and one arm only on the center line. I appologize for any confusion on my part.

[count]

It's a fair question. Very rare I find movements in forms that I know that need modification. To be specific, Tan Tui for example, might not have the guard hand in a guard. This has to be adjusted for use. But for training, the idea is to develope long power. Not power from a long range but long power from a short range. By twisting the hand all the way back, you are building that specific power. Only example I can think of right now for a form that requires adjusting for usage.

Post the fist appears in other longfist forms. But it would be a mistake to not be clear of timing. At that point your attacker is already past your guard. I understand your point about the long pole backhand, but this is different.

To be clear, in a fight there is no guard stance. You would not put your hands in any guard. You would not take any posture or take any stance. The only stance in a fight is principle. Sports are different. You might have to modify your forms for that.

[Waidan]

My San Soo forms...I'd fully expect to be eating knuckle sandwiches left and right if I fought that way. It seems to me the hand forms for KFSS are designed more to develop power in the legs and hips and improve striking mechanics than anything else.

My bagua...no modification or alteration necessary. The bagua "guard" (at least as I've learned it) is practical in my opinion, and my forms translate readily to fighting applications. But really, the forms are just a starting point in bagua anyway

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Preserve the tradition.. build on it.. use it as a foundation to create the next more functional tradition.. and explore/create new forms that DO enhance one's combat capability.. strict adherence to traditional forms is stagnate.. MA is a dynamic living art.. life is change, no change, no life..

Be well..

[Ray Pina]

Well said. Nobody wants to hear about last year's computer model.