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Thread: Tony C controversy...

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by reneritchie
    Bravo's awesome. One of the best instructors I've come across. His method of teaching is super systematic and high retention.

    However, he takes a lot of glaucoma medication and while it makes him incredibly funny (see Twister DVD or his Man Show writing) it probably also makes other bio-chemical alterations.

    The rest of the discussion is pointless.

    LOL. glaucoma medication.
    Sapere aude, Justin.

    The map is not the Terrain.

    "Wheather you believe you can, or you believe you can't...You're right." - Henry Ford

  2. #32

    Cecchine follow-up

    I realize this thread has been dead for quite some time, but for the edification of those who might happen to stumble across it, let me just follow up a bit on what Victor has said here.

    When this whole Rogan/Bravo/Cecchine/Ricciousa thing played out, it turned out that Ricciousa was NOT, in fact, Cecchine -- just as both he and Cecchine himself had both maintained. Cecchine has emails from both the actual Ricciousa and Kirik, the mma.tv owner, making this clear.

    Glenn Ortiz, who Victor mentions earlier in this thread, was in fact responsible for starting the lie that Ricciousa and Cecchine were one and the same. But he didn't do it publicly; instead, he went to Bravo and Rogan privately and told them he had a reliable source for making the claim.

    Rogan and Bravo ran with it -- Ortiz claims he never wanted it to go public, but, well, you don't say something to Joe Rogan without knowing he'll trumpet it all over the universe -- and, from what I can gather from what Victor has written here, both Ortiz and Jake Shannon were among those fanning the flames.

    To my knowledge, nobody -- not Rogan, not Bravo, not Ortiz -- has ever apologized to Cecchine.

    Meanwhile, Jake Shannon has used this "discrediting" of Cecchine to build himself up as the savior of catch wrestling.

    After taking a 1-day seminar with Cecchine -- a seminar, incidentally, that is on DVD.

    In the wake of Shannon's bogus accusations, others have made claims calling into question Cecchine's credentials. I won't rehash the debunking of all that here, but, having visited Chicago recently, I can testify that Cecchine is the real deal.

  3. #33
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    Thumbs up Jake Shannon's Article

    I've gotten a chance to read this entire thread, and think Jake's perspective should be also shared for other members on here to come to a proper conclusion. I'm not speaking on Jake Shannon's behalf, but as a fan of his efforts in catch wrestling.

    Please read, and then decide for yourself.
    http://www.scientificwrestling.com/public/93print.cfm

  4. #34
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    thanks for the link Kamikaze...im trying to sort everything out on this thread

  5. #35
    since the thread has been relived I would like to point out that Mr. Bravo has evolved from BJJ to a Catch curriculum.

    http://darkplanetcatchwrestling.com/home.html

    he is also bringing back "the Gi" at his gym.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SQ5epGd1C0

    From what I'm hearing they are doing Ving tsun at 10th Planet instead of Kickboxing.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by monji112000 View Post
    since the thread has been relived I would like to point out that Mr. Bravo has evolved from BJJ to a Catch curriculum.

    http://darkplanetcatchwrestling.com/home.html

    he is also bringing back "the Gi" at his gym.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SQ5epGd1C0

    From what I'm hearing they are doing Ving tsun at 10th Planet instead of Kickboxing.
    LOL !
    That sounds almost freaky enough to be true !!
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    LOL !
    That sounds almost freaky enough to be true !!
    are you calling me a liar?

    you must admit the whole finding christ and the kingdom rio juijuitsu line was funny.

    I nearly ****ed in my pants..
    Last edited by monji112000; 04-08-2008 at 08:06 PM.

  8. #38
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    Talking On Jake Shannon

    Quote Originally Posted by jackmcmanus21 View Post
    thanks for the link Kamikaze...im trying to sort everything out on this thread
    Yea, I'd encourage everyone on here to read his article. It sheds some light for the reasons for his actions, and his reasons for starting up scientificwrestling.com. I don't think he's trying to be the savior of catch wrestling. He just wants to be an accurate resource for information on catch. His work has earned the support of legends such as Josh Barnett, Karl Gotch, Billy Wicks, Fujiwara, Mark Flemming, Frank Shamrock, Erik Paulson, and that's just to name a few. So I support Shannon's efforts 100%.
    Last edited by kamikaze; 04-09-2008 at 11:02 AM. Reason: typo

  9. #39
    ...and a whole lot more, can be found on this Bullshido thread.

    Of course, not everyone is happy that I've begun investigating many of the allegations against Cecchine. So far, I've had my Wiki entry altered, been called all manner of names, and have been threatened with the promise of having a federal marshal put on my trail (yeah, I have no idea what that means, either), and with litigation.

    Which, of course, is rubbish. Shannon recently revised an article to take out the assertion that Cecchine has been "proven a fraud," given that such a statement is actionable.

    I've been able to put Cecchine with Stanley Radwan, the man he has always maintained trained him, in the same church at the same time (thanks to a discussion I had with a Monsignor in his late 80s). I've found a second source who referred to Radwan as a catch wrestler (well, actually it's a third source: Lou Thesz knew of him, too -- but evidently we can't take Lou Thesz at his word. Which is convenient, given that he's now dead and can't defend himself), and when I contacted that source, I was told the info may have come from Strength and Health magazine (which I'm trying to track down).

    Similarly, I've shown how it is nearly impossible, given the time line, for Cecchine to have learned hooking in advance of the 1996 VHS tapes I've seen (one for Pancrase, another an exhibition at a martial arts school -- both of which tapes were dedicated to Stanley Radwan, incidentally, several years before Cecchine ever put out any material on hooking or for sale). What Shannon's "Crisis of Catch" piece doesn't tell people is that Cecchine's mother verified for Shannon that Tony trained with Radwan; that Billy Wicks didn't meet Tony until nearly two years after LAOH was released (making the claim that Cecchine, who was friends with Lou Thesz, "latched on to Billy Wicks for legitimacy" rather silly); that Wicks asked for the introduction through Army Maguire; that Brian Deneve corrected Jake on a number of his facts, but that Shannon decided to ignore those corrections; that Cecchine suffered an aneurism in 1993 and couldn't walk again until the end of 1995; that the Fujiwara Submission Master videos didn't come out in Japan until 1994, while Tony was still in a wheelchair; that Cecchine suffered a serious ailment in 2001-2002 that would make it impossible for him to be sanctioned to fight; that Billy Wicks and his students have posted a number of apocryphal stories regarding both Deneve and Cecchine -- all of which I've been able to debunk either through eyewitness testimony (a story about Deneve being tapped out by a non-wrestler in under a minute; a story about a Wicks student named Johnny Huskey supposedly calling Cecchine out) or through a simple reconstruction of timelines (the claim that Billy Wicks taught Cecchine a keylock and short arm scissors, both of which appear in LAOH and Cecchine's wristlock seminar videos before he'd ever heard of Billy Wicks).

    More, Cecchine famously broke from Matt Furey. And to date, no one has shown any evidence of a business arrangement between Thesz and Cecchine (and, as Victor Parlati shows earlier in this thread, Tony remained close with the Thesz family up until the time of Lou's death). Cecchine and Thesz did not put out a single piece of merchandise; and the interview wherein Thesz names Cecchine as a legitimate hooker is now being digitized and will soon be available online.

    It has always been easy simply to link Mr Shannon's "Crisis of Catch" piece as a way to discredit Cecchine. Which is why I've answered that piece -- and every other question -- on that Bullshido thread linked at the outset of this post.

    Soon, I'll be publishing a condensed response to Mr Shannon's piece -- along with an interview with Cecchine.

    In the meantime, I urge those of you interested in these issues to visit the Bullshido thread. Personally, I don't buy the supposition Shannon offered on the phone to me that Cecchine, while in a managed care facility, watched some Fujiwara tape over and over again, and so -- when he was able to walk -- had "learned" hooking.

    Not only is Fujiwara's technique different from Cecchine's (as both Josh Barnett and Brian Deneve have noted), but the idea that a guy re-learning to walk would be concerned with learning step over toe holds, strikes me as preposterous.

    So take the loaded questions and insinuations in that Shannon piece with a grain of salt. After all, who has profited most from all this?

  10. #40
    JeffG is absolutely correct in all his posts so far. And I highly recommend that everyone interested in this matter follow the link that Jeff provided and read the thread that is still currently underway at BULLSHIDO.

    I could spend hours and numerous posts here talking about what I know concerning Jake Shannon - as I have dealt with him and his lies/distortions/outright unproven slanders/duplicity/bullying tactics on countless threads on no less than about 4 different forum websites by now - including CATCHING him so badly in lies/deception/website crashing shenanigans that he immediately asked Kirik to disband the catch wrestling forum on mma.tv within 5 minutes of my last post on the forum...

    since Jake didn't want anybody to read my final post - which was the final post on any thread on that forum since Kirik did what Jake asked. (Not that I'm accusing Kirik of complicity as he was not really up-to-speed on what was going on there and just bought the bull that Jake obviously fed him about why he (Jake) wanted the forum to be dissolved).

    The bottom line is this: Jake took exactly one day's worth of in-person seminar training with Tony Cecchine and then decided to:

    1) Start calling himself a catch wrestler and charging about $100.-150.00 an hour for private lessons...

    2) Started spreading false accusations about whether or not Cecchine actually learned catch from Stanley Radwan - and whether or not Radwan was actually a catch wrestler himself...

    3) Did everything he could to try and slander/libel/discredit the catch great Lou Thesz because Lou endorsed Tony C as a legitimate catch "hooker" (master of submissions)...

    4) Started networking with everybody and selling catch and other wrestling related vids and books (that's fine as far as it goes - and about his only real contribution to the catch resurgence)...BUT DID SO by trying to discredit Tony C - who is the real starting point of the Catch resurgence...and not Matt Furey - who only sought out Karl Gotch for some training AFTER he (Furey) was involved with Cecchine...

    and was no longer trusted by Cecchine because of his (Furey's) unscrupulous business practices, ie.- false claims, charging ridiculous amounts of money for his vids while making claims about how much he actually learned from Gotch (who had since completely disowned him)...and of course there's the now infamous claim by Furey that he's chanelled the ghost of old catch-great Martin (Farmer) Burns...

    5) Shannon constantly stoked the fires of the famous RICCIOUSA thread on mma.tv which Jeff has rightly pointed out was based upon COMPLETELY FALSE INFORMATION...

    6) In all probability it was Shannon who crashed his own friend Bill Cogswell's old Groundfighting website forum and tried to suggest that Tony C did it - the very thing I was in the process of exposing on the mma.tv catch forum when Jake frantically asked Kirik to pull the plug...

    7) Edited/deleted people's posts on that forum (while constantly threatening to ban them)...people who disagreed with his assessment of Cecchine, or Thesz, (one of the greatest catch wrestlers of all time)...or of Shannons's negative assessment of Tony C's video/seminar material - while simultaneously hawking for people to go out and buy the products that he (Jake) was selling...

    The guy is a real bad joke, to say the least. And he's lost all credibility on the Cecchine/Thesz/Radwan issues.

    The vids/articles/other people's seminars that he's managed to put togeter and sell are for the most part very helpful to catch enthusisats, I'll give him that much - but he's a snake in the grass if there ever was one.
    Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 04-13-2008 at 12:52 PM.

  11. #41
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    Thumbs up No Problem.

    I'll have to check out the thread, and have a response to you by sometime in the middle of the week. I'm here to find out the truth about the whole matter.

  12. #42
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    Thumbs up My Response

    60+ Pages Jeff G!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!??!?!

    I tried to read that Bushido thread, but I don't have the time. So I did my best to skim through at least half of it. The best post that I saw came from Bill Cogswell, and I totally agree. This Tony C & Jake Shannon nonsense isn't doing much for catch wrestling, and it really is time to bury this hatchet. It's like constantly re-opening an old wound that nobody (outside of catch) really cares about. If not between those two individuals, then maybe it's up to the members. What do you think?

    Right now, the focus should be producing good catch wrestlers for competition. I'm still going for my certification, and plan on establishing a club at my friend's gyms in Indiana (Purdue University). You're more than welcome to come down and train. In the end, it's all a learning process anyways!

  13. #43

    As long as we're clearing up old lies...

    Here's a very thoroughly sourced answer to Shannon's hit piece on Cecchine, which he's been running for over half a decade, and which still appears near the top of any Google search for Cecchine's name. Shannon uses that piece, referenced above by kamikaze, to discredit Cecchine and bring business his way.

    It's easy to say both sides need to stop, but the fact of the matter is, Tony never fought back. He TRIED being the bigger man, thinking no one who sees his material is going to believe Shannon anyway. Didn't work out like that.

    See here: "Jake Shannon and Kris Iatskevich: Catch Wrestlings NEWEST newest Crisis of Conscience".

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