Results 1 to 13 of 13

Thread: Some Martial arts wisdom

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    minneapolis, mn
    Posts
    8,864

    Some Martial arts wisdom

    and an awesome capoeira video! Check this guy out

    http://www.capoeiraliège.be.tf/

    in the videos section check out the video titled "Eberson". The whole thing is pretty cool but there is some real example of malicia and skil in the last game.


    Also while cruising the internet I found this page containing some translations of some works in portuguese on capoeira and found some interesting comments fitting to just about al martial arts. Even though these are all from a capoeiristas point of view I found some of them are easily applied to any art.

    the webpage is: http://shadowcat170.tripod.com/capoeira/id90.html - there is also a few comments that reveal the mystical or mythical side of capoeira as well, like any traditional art it has it's history of magic and legend.

    In General:

    "Not every mestre is a good capoeirista and not every good capoeirista is a mestre. Mestres can recognize the capoeirista who knows the fundamentals of capoeira angola, aiming above all for self-perfection and the spiritual and philosophical aspect of his art, and not just his performance in the game and in the fight."

    "The violence of capoeira must stay in the innermost part of the capoeirista, only manifesting itself in extreme situations, in defense of life"

    "The hits of capoeira angola, almost always executed with moderation in the roda, are very dangerous when used in the street, against enemies, as long as the practitioner possesses the necessary experience to utilize them in this circumstance; if this is not the case, the situation is inverted (the danger is to the practitioner)."

    "The capoeirista that never faced a weapon cannot say that he doesn't know how to defend himself against it. And the fact of him knowing all the techniques of defense against armed adversaries also doesn't mean that he is prepared to face them. The most important thing is that the capoeirista stays CALM in the hour of danger. To possess the self-control necessary to override fear."

    "Some people in our midst have the custom of criticizing others’ playing styles, because they lift their legs very high or, by contrast, because they don’t usually lift them above the level of the waist, and other comments of this nature. If these people reflected on this type of attitude without vanity, which is unique to the human being of delayed evolution, they would certainly arrive at the obvious conclusion of the poverty, in terms of creativity, that there would be if all of us practiced the same style; and that this condition of diversity is what gives origin to the wealth of details present in rodas of capoeira, where the ego of the capoeristas manifests itself through their bodies’ movements, demonstrating that to play capoeira is a state of the spirit and that emotion is its essential component."

    "No one is the owner of the absolute truth. Capoeira undergoes a constant process of creation and it fits us, as mestres, to extract the best out of the diverse forms of teaching, aiming to enrich each time our art, adapting it to our objectives and having the caution to know how to separate well the “chaff from the wheat,” eliminating all the movements that are foreign to our roots, that discharacterize the art, adding and conserving those that are in agreement with our traditions. It is no shame or sign of ignorance to copy what has value; much to the contrary, it is a sign of wisdom."

    "The true angoleiro does not do capoeira, he lives capoeira. So don’t be in a hurry" - this is essentially my new atitude towards training.



    Some Interesting comments and insight on the nature of capoeira:

    "The angoleiro must always keep himself on the defensive, especially in street fights, having the caution to put himself in the position of the victim according to the testimonies."

    "In defense against enemies, we must threaten to attack them in a determined place, so that he worries too much about protecting it, allowing an attack to another place"

    "The majority of the frontally applied hits, for example the chapa, are often used in street fights. However, the spinning hits are more useful in counterattacks, mainly when executed for deception"

    "When you are playing close to your partner, try to close your guard well and use the floreio with the aim of deceiving him and make him become vulnerable" - Floreio are all the really fancy, flowery moves you see in capoeira.

    "Modern capoeira is similar to a young and beautiful woman that naturally rivets whoever sees her, although she is completely empty in her essence. Whereas the traditional capoeira of the past was more similar to a simple woman of the people, who does not stand out at first sight, but however possesses a truer beauty, interior, that only the people with a more acute sensitivity could immediately perceive."

    "Capoeira does not have only one owner, nor only one color. It was born in Bahia; however, it has all the colors of the world and it belongs to everyone who has it in their heart and soul."

    "The factors that most contributed to the discharacterization of capoeira in recent times were, firstly, the formation of folkloric groups for exhibitions in theaters and variety shows, with purely commercial objectives, in which they tried to impress the audience with movements characteristic of acrobatic gymnastics. Secondly, the infiltration of practitioners of other martial arts, when they began to compare them to capoeira, incorporating new hits under the pretext of modernizing capoeira, without possessing the least knowledge about capoeira’s real fundamentals."
    _______________
    I'd tell you to go to hell, but I work there and don't want to see you everyday.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    515
    having never seen the stuff before this thread i'll say these:

    as an art of dance it is very martial and very arial and reminds me of break dancing: a western art enjoyed and practiced by both my teachers. however i don't think the application of that leaning technique will be too good for the applicator. the kind of power it generates looks like it'd really mess up the attacker's knees. the guy in the first two vids looked like the teacher-?- and his knees were always unlocked: but the other guys seemed to have locked knees, except for the guy in the second stream of the first site who's knees seemed straighter yet still unlocked. the lower back and hip flexibility and placement of the knees in the twisting arials was informative. 760 screwdriver manuever appears to lead with the left back hook at the same time the right gains elevation and plants in midair. right hip seems to provide accessory rotation.

    interms of general study i think it would be great as a fundamental exercise or foundation building leg routine for remedial conditioning. but i think the way it moves would jeopardise a stylist in a fight.

    thanks red5angel!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Southern England
    Posts
    2,073
    "The true angoleiro does not do capoeira, he lives capoeira. So don’t be in a hurry" - this is essentially my new atitude towards training.
    Good attitude. I'm a lot happier since I adopted it myself.
    '"4 ounces deflect 1000 pounds" represents a skill potential, if you stand in front of a 1000 pound charging bull and apply four ounces of deflection, well, you get the picture..' - Tai Chi Bob

    "My car has a lot of parts in there that I don't know about, don't know what they're called, haven't seen them and wouldn't know what they were if someone pointed them out to me .... doesn't mean they're not in there." - Evolution Fist

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    515
    Quote Originally Posted by red5angel

    What do you mean by locked and unlocked?
    As for:

    "but i think the way it moves would jeopardise a stylist in a fight"

    how so?
    your two questions are rather related from my pov. while the spinning style does generate rather impressive kicks *experienced* fighters tend to agree that locking a knee while generating large centrifugal forces tends to damage the ball and socket joints between your femur and tibia/fibia. especially if the roll angle of the kick is not performed correctly. a locked leg can be devestating if the roll angle is correct. generally to control the roll angle the pubis of the pelvic girdle must be facing the oponent. so if you lean over and support your weight by fingering the ground as your torso spins over it you jeopardise your knee.

    the easiest way to combat the power of such a strike is to move into the radius of the kick before it intercepts you with the heel. at that point you can catch/block/strike the strike, break the knee, sweep/snap the back knee, and control his body in the air.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Asheville, NC
    Posts
    1,398
    Red,

    I know next to nothing about Capoeira so forgive my ignorance... I have a couple of questions. As I watch these videos and in the little bit of live Capoeira I've seen, there is never any contact. It seems that each party sort of waits for the other one to complete thier maneuver before beginning one of thier own. (Albeit the advanced folks are amazingly fast and smooth).

    Do you make contact in your training with these attacks? Are there any video examples of contact sparring between Capoeiristas?
    The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it's still on the list.

    www.curious3d.com

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    515
    yeah, i noticed that as well. also in the other threads on that page when there was contact (obviously accidental) they generally stopped their demos. but with the music and everything it'd really get out of hand if they all just played until the blood flowed.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Asheville, NC
    Posts
    1,398
    I didn't mean to full contact...

    seems like at 25% contact level or so it wouldn't upset the flow. Would be nice to see some intercept-absorb-respond...
    The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it's still on the list.

    www.curious3d.com

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    515
    Hmm... a melon headed duck hunting cat! I *like*it.

    is that one of those petite variety melons or is it just a baby giant one?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    minneapolis, mn
    Posts
    8,864
    hey ming yu - easy to answer actually. There is very little contact in the jogo or game. Capoeira, like many other arts have moved to a more sport like posture then to reality combat, however the idea stems from an old school way of training several things at once.

    The idea is that you are training timing as well as the individual techniques themselves. To play in the game you're not looking to make contact, your looking to show that you COULD HAVE made contact. I like to think of it as counting coupe basically. Part of doing capoeira is keeping the flow of the game going. It also helps to train your endurance since if you maintain the flow, you're constantly moving, it can get pretty hard core.

    There is some contact. More often then not by accident of course but it happens on purpose from time to time and it just depends on who you're playing and what they're goals are. If they do't like you, they may take some actual shots at you.

    As for how it works as a training tool? It has helped me with timing immensely, but mostly overall body timing and kicking. Is it the most practical way to train? I don't think so, in our class we also practice certain techniques after class with bags and partners but for the most part what you see in the videos are rodas where everyone is playing the game of capoeira. That is where in my opinion you learn the most about the art itself and about malicia.

    As for intercept, absorb and respond - I think there may even be a quote on the page I linked too about this. Essentially a Capoeiristas goal is to not get hit. again, some people may want to argue if that is reality or not, but a capoeira trains a lot to not get hit and some of them get pretty good at it. Occasionally you'l see guys get hit and they'll respond. If you watch that video, the guy who is the star of the shoe, in the last two fights has some contact he recovers from really well.

    Of course as usual I'm not claiming capoeira is the most practical art . It's consistant for the most part in it's approach to not geting hit, and timing your shots, and the way you train it shows that. Atleast its' consistant in that!
    _______________
    I'd tell you to go to hell, but I work there and don't want to see you everyday.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    minneapolis, mn
    Posts
    8,864
    Yuan - not sure how to reply to your comments. I'm not a doctor or a biologist so I don't know the impact ov moving the way capoeirstas move. I know alot of the old guys tell you not to stay low for too long and not to practice low for too long to protect your knees. I know a lot of guys have practiced well into their 70's (I just got done reading an article abotu a guy who started at 77) so I think as far as the impact on your healt, like all things it has a lot to do with genetics and how smart you train it.
    _______________
    I'd tell you to go to hell, but I work there and don't want to see you everyday.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    minneapolis, mn
    Posts
    8,864
    Ming Yu - there was a video on this forum not too long ago that had some video footage of a guy who point sparred using some capoeira techniques I will see if I can find. There's also supposed to be a UFC fighter or two that claim to use it from time to time.
    _______________
    I'd tell you to go to hell, but I work there and don't want to see you everyday.

  12. #12
    those are some purdy decent games
    thanx 4 the linx

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    515
    Red5:

    thanks again for your informed and educational posts about this art.

    my comments are from my experience as a fighter only. i have never seen capoiera before this but have seen some derivatives in the African Arts system and have seen the guys from torrence and long beach use clf-like wide sweeping kicks that look more like this than clf. my style of clf is all about maiming an oponent: it is not a sport kung fu. i have done a lot of tui na sports medicine so i have an understanding of joints and things that can go wrong simply by moving incorrectly. so that's where my statements come from in terms of experience. i developed three techniques for intercepting kicks and killing or maiming the thrower of the kick. one of which was described.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •