The Clinch

[yenhoi]

How do you train to stay out of clinch range without training clinch range???

[SimonM]

You seem to assume that the clinch is the only close-range strategy that works. Also you are obviously ignoring the fact that I have not ever said "don't train the clinch" I said "don't rush needlessly into the clinch".

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I am saying that if a clinch can be avoided (and it can, trust me...)" (SimonM)

HOW ABOUT telling us about it?

How do you (and your sifu) go about avoiding it?

Let's say your opponent is working to get it - as you're coming forward toward him with something....how do you go about stopping it?

[SimonM]

For a high clinch attempt, duck and weave, throw a couple of defensive upper cuts and move back and to the side, attempt to flank.
For mid level clinch attempt I would be likely to attempt to avoid a full clinch with: Intercept his hands, redirect, drawing a flank if possible, elbow and escape.
For low shoot Step back and to the side, strike with hands, keep weight foreward enough to sprawl if he manages to spin and close.

These would be a few random avoidance techniques I would emply. Footwork is king.

Edit: of course as my concern with the clinch is it's tendency to limit options I would say that each of these techniques would be dependant on the style and skill of the opponent I was trying to face, I don't believe in any absolutes in fighting.

[Yum Cha]

How different do you gentlemen see "bridge-stick/strike" techniques to cinching?

Bridging usually involves active grabbing, and overbearing, sticking, tangling, chum lik, however you implement it.

I see a lot of common ground between the two. Half grappling, half striking, but maintaining contact full-time, and exerting force into your opponent trying to keep them off balance, or off centre.

Obviously, there's a difference between gloved and un-gloved cinching.

[David Jamieson]

moving to the clinch is just another way of doing things. It is no more or less valid than trying to keep out of it.

it's one more range that you gotta deal with. Better to work with as many ranges as you can.

[SevenStar]

Edit: of course as my concern with the clinch is it's tendency to limit options I would say that each of these techniques would be dependant on the style and skill of the opponent I was trying to face, I don't believe in any absolutes in fighting.

This is what we're failing to see... where is the limitation? That is where I would prefer to be, as I can strike you AND I have control of you. I'm actually more limited outside of clinching range, as i can't throw you from punching or kicking ranges.

[SimonM]

The limitation is clear through the process of discourse. What I see as close range, you see as clinching range. I prefer to be in and out, do the damage and back off quick. Clinching is antithetical to that method so I see it more as an eventuality to train for than something to seek.

[SevenStar]

in which case, it's only a limitation to you, given your fighting preference. I prefer to be on the inside of my opponent, where I can hook, knee, uppercut, etc. I can also throw and takedown from that range. So to me, that range is ideal. It seems that what you are talking about is just a matter of perpsective.

[SimonM]

You can take down from very long range with a little help from Mr Brick Wall and a standard ward off. But then I guess most fight rings don't give you brick walls to smack people with.

Anyway my shift is over and I am going home to practice so I will bid you all good evening if anyone cares enough about this thread to continue it I'll check it out in a few days otherwise it's been a fun little argument.

Goodnight.

[MonkeySlap Too]

"This is what we're failing to see... where is the limitation? That is where I would prefer to be, as I can strike you AND I have control of you. I'm actually more limited outside of clinching range, as i can't throw you from punching or kicking ranges."

Gee Seven, you're starting to sound like someone familiar...

[MonkeySlap Too]

Look, define clinch. The clinch, any clinch done well gives you a beat that you can use, relatively free from most of the pummeling weapons. "Clinching" in all it's varieties is a great strategy, especially if you don't just sit there. Which is where the confusion might come from. The clinch is not the destination, just the exit ramp.

Bridging is being largely overlooked - while a lot 'classical' bridgeing that you see is pretty useless in a Western boxing dominated environment, those same principles can be modified (or used directly in the case of Kun Tao or SPM) to deal with the WB environment.

Feel free to spin out on this...

[SevenStar]

"This is what we're failing to see... where is the limitation? That is where I would prefer to be, as I can strike you AND I have control of you. I'm actually more limited outside of clinching range, as i can't throw you from punching or kicking ranges."

Gee Seven, you're starting to sound like someone familiar...

speaking of which, did you know that you're standing in my space?

[yenhoi]

For a high clinch attempt, duck and weave, throw a couple of defensive upper cuts and move back and to the side, attempt to flank.
For mid level clinch attempt I would be likely to attempt to avoid a full clinch with: Intercept his hands, redirect, drawing a flank if possible, elbow and escape.
For low shoot Step back our clinch defense methods are and to the side, strike with hands, keep weight foreward enough to sprawl if he manages to spin and close.

Your clinch defense methods are being trained and executed in clinch range. Your clinch fighting. You fall into the category of purposely fighting in the clinch.

Truely avoiding the clinch would be stepping away and kicking. And even then your foot/leg/knee/etc could e grabbed.

[lkfmdc]

For a high clinch attempt, duck and weave, throw a couple of defensive upper cuts and move back and to the side, attempt to flank.
For mid level clinch attempt I would be likely to attempt to avoid a full clinch with: Intercept his hands, redirect, drawing a flank if possible, elbow and escape.
For low shoot Step back and to the side, strike with hands, keep weight foreward enough to sprawl if he manages to spin and close.

These would be a few random avoidance techniques I would emply. Footwork is king.

Edit: of course as my concern with the clinch is it's tendency to limit options I would say that each of these techniques would be dependant on the style and skill of the opponent I was trying to face, I don't believe in any absolutes in fighting.

Wow, really, maybe in all seriousness you really Do need to look at my clinch DVD..

how are you gonna duck and weave out of a double neck tie, an underhook or a Japanese tie up??

Clinch is about control, that's been said, once you have control, you can hit, you can throw or you can escape... but I'm seeing some very serious lack of understanding of REALITY in this thread....