Eagle Claw - claw technique

[soulguy2k]

Hi,

I'm german Kung Fu student and I've got a question concerning the claw-technique of the Eagle Claw Kung Fu. I know that the Eagle Clw style is a traditional northern fist, but the "Kung Fu Forum"-Guys sent me in here, because they had no exact informations for me.

I'm very interested in the history of Kung Fu and that's why I oftern look around on homepages of different Kung Fu styles. When I finally found Eagle Claw Homepages (Lily Lau Eagle Claw Kung Fu and Leung Shum Eagle Claw Kung Fu) I was a trifle bemused, because on every picture this kind of claw-technique was used:



I only knew the Eagle Claw style from different Kung Fu movies and I never saw this kind of claw-technique associated with the Eagle Claw before. Whenever the Eagle Claw technique was mentioned for example in a movie, the actor always used this kind of claw technique::



Unfortunatly I'm not a student of the Eagle Claw Kung Fu and there is not even an Eagle Claw Skool in Germany. So I thought, that you perhaps could help me out. Can somebody tell me, where those different claw techniques come from, what their meaning is and when they are to be used?

Thank you previously.

Kind regards

[WinterPalm]

I don't know much about Eagle Claw but the Five Animal forms that my Sifu does have the second claw in your post as the Crane hand formation. Whereas in the Black Tiger Vs. Crane form, the Crane is the beak formation. I think it really comes down to the lineage and the ideology behind what the creators or subsequent practioners and Sifu were trying to express.

[David Jamieson]

claw use is a little higher on the old totem pole of techs.

more often than not, they prove to be difficult to pull off in alive training.
In compliant partner drills they work all day long, but in reality, well, claws are probably not the bestthing to pull out of your tool box if you haven't conditioned the heck out ofthe hands you intend to use them with. And this literally takes years.

having said that, it is very difficult to put into verbiage any sort of instruction that will definitively help you to understand how to do kungfu and used advanced hand forms correctly. Better to be shown.

If you are in Germany, you probably have access to Hung Gar? Yes? If so, there are many Tiger claw techniques which amount to more or less the same.

Claws are claws, they spread, the grab, they sink in, they pull back or remain latched on. that is the essence of any claw type usage in kungfu. The same as it is in the animal world. Tearing, ripping, piercing, shredding.

the lily lau and Leung Shum techs are correct ying jao pai type stuff. as is the other. using less of the hand denotes that you are either attacking a smaller target such as the throat or maybe the fat on someones back around their kidney area or it can also be just a trait of the style it is being used in.

Ultimately, tere really isn't any hard and fast way to do things in kungfu, more important that what works, works. It all melds into one thing ultimately anyway if you stick with it. Very hard to tell what style a fighter comes from, easier to see it in a form performer.

But form performance and fight are two entirely different things. Just for the record I've seen the three finger variation of the eagle claw as well.

[jmd161]

I don't know much about Eagle Claw but the Five Animal forms that my Sifu does have the second claw in your post as the Crane hand formation. Whereas in the Black Tiger Vs. Crane form, the Crane is the beak formation. I think it really comes down to the lineage and the ideology behind what the creators or subsequent practioners and Sifu were trying to express.

Hmmmm

That's very interesting ,i've never seen the second used as a crane technique ,although i have seen it used as a eagle claw technique to grasp the wrist and such.

jeff

[Three Harmonies]

Kung Lek has the right idea. Usually if only a couple of fingers are used it is geared towards the throat/groin areas. When grabbing the your opponents arm or other appendage then it is preferable to use all fingers together.
To make the "proper" Eagle Claw:
Keep all 4 fingers together and bend them in at the second knuckle. You should be able to fit one finger (from your other hand obviously) in the curl.
The thumb is the toughest part. It should be almost vertical with the hand (pointing towards the other four finger tips), but this is ****ed near impossible!
You should be able to fit two finger widths in the space between your finger tips and your thumb tip.
If doing this right your palm should be slightly concave, but **** strong.
Kung Lek is also correct in that these techniques are pretty impossible in a real fight. I have learned Eagle Claw with a good friend for about 5 years now, and these techniques are fun and interesting, but in real life......
Lets put it this way.... though he has many years more experience than myself, he comes to my Mantis classes to learn how to fight!
Leung Shum seems to be the most experienced in the U.S. if not the world (I have heard Eagle Claw is all but dead in China!). Lily Lau I have met before, and besides her off putting (this is me being nice BTW ) attitude, her Eagle Claw students seemed to have a HEAVY wushu influence. Not sure if this is how she learned, or if she has added this to gain students. In all fairness I did not touch hands with her so I have no clue of her true talent, just my observation.
Check out Leung Shum's book on Eagle Claw as it is the best (only????) source on Ying Jow Pai in English. Also check the Northern Forum as I know a few Eagle Clawists roam there!
Hope this has helped guys.
Cheers
Jake Burroughs
three_harmonies@hotmail.com
505-385-2987
www.threeharmonies.com

[soulguy2k]

Ok, thank you very much for all informations. I'll keep on investigating on that term. If I get any news, I'll fresh up this threat.

That what an UK-Eagle-Claw master said in the northern forum:

The three finger eagle claw is used in Hsing Yi.

It is also used in southern eagle claw, I have documentation and photo's of Golden eagle style from Taiwan that uses three fingers.

starchser is correct in the his explanation of the hand shaped claw, it is predominantly Northern eagle claw that uses that uses that hand shape.

Lung Ying or dragon style is a little different, the three fingers are used but the last two are not folded down so much and looks more like an extended tiger claw.

[Shaolinlueb]

even though hk is home of lau family now. if you ask a southerner in china to show you eagle calw they will show you the 2nd claw. a couple people from fujian i know do the same. its more of a southerner/northerner thing. you notice in the movies of shaw (mainly made from hk) show the 2nd eagle claw alot. its used for a different application too.

[David Jamieson]

Hey Jeff, Cameron sifu denotes that hand form as Crane.

It does seem odd, but in context to how he uses it in his curriculum, It's Crane.

Cameron sifu does meld quite a few things together in his overall stuff. At least from what I remember.

[X-Warrior]

I've actually seen more of the first type of grab used a lot by eagle stylist, but did see the second one too. I think it's just a matter of what school and which movies you watch. I am not sure if the different kind of grabs originate from different branch of the art, some styles might use both, I wouldn't be surprised about that. Many masters integrate techniques from other styles to make their system 'more complete'.

-X-

[David Jamieson]

Johnny Tsai uses the second as his eagle claw hand form.

But, I don't know what his primary style is.
He does have some recognition in the states though.

[jmd161]

Hey Jeff, Cameron sifu denotes that hand form as Crane.

It does seem odd, but in context to how he uses it in his curriculum, It's Crane.

Cameron sifu does meld quite a few things together in his overall stuff. At least from what I remember.

Ahhh ok!

jeff

[Ben Gash]

[QOUTE]more often than not, they prove to be difficult to pull off in alive training.
In compliant partner drills they work all day long, but in reality, well, claws are probably not the bestthing to pull out of your tool box if you haven't conditioned the heck out ofthe hands you intend to use them with. And this literally takes years.[/QUOTE]
Not really true in my experience,claws work perfectly well in live situations , and without much finger conditioning. Tendon strength is more important then bone density and skin condition, as the aim is to tear soft tissue, and tendon strength is developed by correct form training (if you play guitar, legato practice gives you a fantastic left hand claw ). As with most kung fu techniques, it's reliant on your skills at entry and bridgeing though. It certainly gives you that extra bit of control for fast Chin Na applications.

Kung Lek has the right idea. Usually if only a couple of fingers are used it is geared towards the throat/groin areas. When grabbing the your opponents arm or other appendage then it is preferable to use all fingers together.
To make the "proper" Eagle Claw:

Again, not really true. If you think of claw number 2 as a clenched fist with two fingers extended, then it's very good for siezing and manipulation, and indeed, allows for pressure point pinches not possible with the full claw. If you're trying to sieze with a fully formed claw of any description then you've missed some pretty fundamental points (and/or you've seen too many movies). The idea is to make contact and form the claw as you sieze.

[David Jamieson]

Ben, you must have the luxury of sparring real slow ass people then.

Gear up, go full blast and see how many claws you can pull off on a peer or someone better than you. I personally think you'll change your view. It's what changed mine.

They are definitely on the list of more advanced techniques and have no where near the percentages of simple palms and fists.

[hasayfu]

Having played both Hung Gar and Xing-I I'm familiar with both types of grabs.

Kung Lek is right that this is higher on the totem pole then strikes or throws. That said, I'm with Ben. These things can be used with the proper bridging. One key aspect about grabbing is that it flows from other techniques. You can't just try to grab someone doing a punch (like most app drills start) but imagine some throwing a real hard block or trying to push you. In these cases, the opponent is usually pretty committed in a single direction. This is the prime requirement for executing a grab.

As for the different hand positions, HG uses the first type of grab with the last three (and really the middle two) fingers for the grab power. The index finger is used more as a fulcrum. XI uses the the second type of grab with the curled fingers acting as a clamp point. This gives the grab a vice like action on top of the general grab. Getting into position however is much harder and I personally find there are more ways for the opponent to escape this grip if not done correctly.

[Starchaser107]

Kung Lek
I'm sorry but that's untrue.
Clawing Techniques especially in the system I practice are for close quarter grappling. Are you saying that grappling is impossible then?, I don't really get what you're aiming at. Whenever someone does BJJ or some other form of submission fighting they are grabbing..seizing and controlling..sound farmiliar?
The Hand formations do have a good use, and I've seen some competent people pull them off many a time, I've pulled them off at times. In fighting nothing is 100% guaranteed to work.