Eagle Claw - claw technique

[WinterPalm]

I would say that the average person could fishhood someone and tear that lip up, or put their fingers in someone's nostrils or on their ears or eyes and tear it up. Although gruesome and not something I like to think about, I'm sure that this constitutes the tearing of flesh and that many people can do this. I would also assume that with years and years of hard training on the hands would allow someone to have much more strength that would possibly allow them to tear into skin and at least dislodge muscles or other anatomy. Pending this cannot happen, then the sheer pain of being grabbed in specific places with the intent that one is going to tear it off might be an advantage. But I am a beginner student and have not trained for very long and so I cannot say to the effectiveness of this. I also have no knowledge of how the eagle claw people train to do this but I believe that tearing flesh is a very possible thing with enough training. Many people of a good statistic cannot do a jumping inside crescent kick, but if they trained long enough it would be second nature.

[shuaichiao]

From what I know the eagle claw is a penetrating grip usualy done at pressure points so the grips add to the locks. If you grab around someones wrist no matter how hard you squeeze the skin, tendons, and even bones will move around inside your grip but if you penetrate into thier wrist you can get a grip that gives them very little wiggle room witch makes alot of counter techniques harder to do.

Tiger claw as I learned it is done with the palm pushed foward so that it is on an even plain with the fingers. The most common uses are a palm strike that claws away after striking and muscle grabbing cum na. If you lift into the grip with your palm you will find you get a much better grip with much more flesh in your hand and inflict much more pain.

The 5 fingered dragon claw that I'm used to is usualy done as a spread finger slap with a slight curl in the fingers that rakes as you follow through. It is often done in sideways motions in combination with leg sweeps for take downs. Dragon grabs rainbow or twin dragons fight for the pearl are the double dragon claw moves witch usualy trap between both palms and then grip and quickly twist for locks and breaks.

The 3 fingered crane claw I have only seen used to grab the throat, groin, and collar bone. The collar bone grip should also aim for the pressure point behind the collar bone. I can get a good grip on the 2 targets I've actually tried to grip with it but I find it just as effective to use all 5 fingers. Sometimes the folded 2 fingers feel like they're in the way in the crane claw. I'm not sure what the advantage of that hand form is suposed to be.

[Three Harmonies]

Winterpalm,
Do not sell yourself short, you bring up a couple very good points! In my hasty writing I forgot about fish hooking etc. Very good point and it is true!
I do not think one could literally rip off flesh, but you mention another great point about tearing the "meat" so to speak, internally! We have all had pulled / strained / torn muscles and can attest to how painful they really can be! Great post!
I also agree that most locks in the Eagle Claw system are associated with cavities, which makes them quite painful, and distracting.
Cheers
Jake

[Ben Gash]

Shuaichiao, as I was trying to explain to Dao, the two curled fingers are for use against larger structures, where the extended fingers hook and the curled fingers pinch (very nasty). Try and perform a wrist lock with good relaxed control, you may well find that your hand automatically assumes a similar position.
Dao, yet again I have to disagree. While with techniques like palms and spearhands bringing your fingers together focuses the energy delivery and means you're less likely to snag a finger on the way in, with the claw, where you are trying to exert strength through each finger, by bringing them togerther you are bringing them out of line and therefore weakening them. While it may well protect the middle and ring fingers, the index and little fingers are still exposed, and most finger manipulations work on them anyway (for just that reason). If you perform a grab and spread the fingers along the arm you have much more control as well.
Kung Lek, your analogy is flawed. When was the last time you tried to rip someone's gluteal muscle off? I can however quite easily pull apart a bit of chicken skin.

[shuaichiao]

I just noticed last night that Gordan Lu Used a three finger eagle claw in Kill Bill 2. He challenged Uma to test her tiger crane against his eagle claw and then in classic shaw brothers style demonstrated his three fingered eagle claw pose.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Having played both Hung Gar and Xing-I I'm familiar with both types of grabs.

Kung Lek is right that this is higher on the totem pole then strikes or throws. That said, I'm with Ben. These things can be used with the proper bridging. One key aspect about grabbing is that it flows from other techniques. You can't just try to grab someone doing a punch (like most app drills start) but imagine some throwing a real hard block or trying to push you. In these cases, the opponent is usually pretty committed in a single direction. This is the prime requirement for executing a grab.

As for the different hand positions, HG uses the first type of grab with the last three (and really the middle two) fingers for the grab power. The index finger is used more as a fulcrum. XI uses the the second type of grab with the curled fingers acting as a clamp point. This gives the grab a vice like action on top of the general grab. Getting into position however is much harder and I personally find there are more ways for the opponent to escape this grip if not done correctly.

So XI uses the 2nd claw like a reversing crane-beak strike that sinks into a grab and leverages on the closed fingers for the tear?

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

For the most part, 99.999% of humans cannot tear flesh with their hands.

to prove this to yourself, just see how much effort it takes to rip a chunk off a roast with your hand.

then think about how that applies in a dynamic situation like a fight.

kung luk:
indeed a roast is a difficult thing to mangle. mainly because its so hard to justify ruining a good piece of meat...

realistically, to train ripping takes a *Long* time on your own or just a few months with someone who can. most human flesh is softer and more pliable than a store-bought roast, thus making it more difficult to remove by handfuls. but human flesh also has the added advantages of behaving in predictable manners and not having as much resistance to shearing stress as animal meat.

three month course available for $8,000.00 usd.

[Three Harmonies]

In the Xing Yi I practice I have never been introduced to this hand posture (does not mean anything though). In Li Tianji's excellent book he makes mention of it though.

Cheers
Jake

PS If I throw in another $10,000 can you teach me how to fly too?

[David Jamieson]

pfft, ben, chicken? you're talking out your ass. LOL

do you guys actually even try to step outside your thoughts on these things?

Application, not rumination.

anybody care to show a vid of themselves striking with a claw on a piece of flesh and actually tearing a chunk off?

I thought not.

Fishhooking is also not the same as striking a mass of flesh, penetrating it and tearing it out. it is inserting your finger into an orifice and pulling which wp is correct, any schmoe can do this WITHOUT ever training a dang thing.

get out of your heads is my advice.

[hasayfu]

So XI uses the 2nd claw like a reversing crane-beak strike that sinks into a grab and leverages on the closed fingers for the tear?

Not that way.

Here's one example. Not the only way but I think it may be clear

imagine doing a back fist stike that gets blocked. rotate the fist and open the three fingers as you slide your hand towards the blocking wrist. the open fingers grab the arm and continue to squeeze harder as you traverse the arm.

When the two curled fingers hit the wrist, they form a leverage point that keeps the hand locked into place and the three fingers (thumb, index, middle) hold the arm. This forms a tighter grip them if all fingers were around the arm.

Hope that made sense.

[Yum Cha]

Pak Mei uses the hand similarly to the definitions by shuaichiao. The open finger one is to attack the throat or groin, and is for penetrating or ripping. And yes, if done correctly, attacking the weak thin flesh, you can penetrate the throat, or at least I'm told, never tried it. Either way, it would crush the windpipe if you tried, to the same practical effect. There is a special way to do it though, not just grabbing the throat.

KL, can you stick your fingers through a chicken's ribs, er, thaw it out first....its a bit easier than tearing a hunk of BBQ off a raw carcass...

The one I wonder about is reaching in and grabbing a rib.

If I looked at the first picture, with the two fingers extended, I would say to bend the fingers a little, and we call that eagle claw.

The other hand, we call Tiger, and the palm strikes first, with the finger and thumb tips adding to the impact, then the fingers make the grab, as in grabbing the back of a tricept, the fat on the back, an ear, neck tendon (driving the thumb into the front of the neck) etc, etc. The idea being a strike and grab.

We also have "Kau La" which is a grabbing bridge of sorts. like a raking attack that grabs onto whatever it can...

Those who choose to train the grabbing strength become very efficient. Finger tip, not finger print, pushups are the measure.

Two bits from my point of view only, not eagle claw style per se.

I think there are several arts, each with their own techniques that have ideas on wrenting flesh, either pulling off bits, penetrating weak spots, or striking to cut then pulling at the wound. I don't think its uniquely eagle claw....

[Ben Gash]

Kung Lek, why do you insist on transferring your own insecurities onto others? You are, after all, the king of theoretical kung fu. As I said, putting your fingers through the dense muscle of the abdomen or thigh would be a VERY advanced skill, but the skin over the face and throat are much easier to damage (hell, the skin over the face tears if you punch it).
After all, you can't even get the thing on target.....

[David Jamieson]

Kung Lek, why do you insist on transferring your own insecurities onto others? You are, after all, the king of theoretical kung fu. As I said, putting your fingers through the dense muscle of the abdomen or thigh would be a VERY advanced skill, but the skin over the face and throat are much easier to damage (hell, the skin over the face tears if you punch it).
After all, you can't even get the thing on target.....

bwahahahaha. mouth boxing? man, "king of theoretical" what the fuk is that supposed to mean gash? just post a vid of you clawing something, i wanna see someone pull it off cause I never have.

I've seen a cook eviscerate a chicken without a knife but I'm will to bet that you can't show me you tearing flesh and you can't show me anyone you know doing the same and speaking of fukking theoretical, get real ok.

In fact has anyone seen their teacher, or someone else tear flesh with their bare hands off the body of another human being? Not heard some story, but seen it first hand themselves or have an accurate eye witness recording?

I'm betting on NOT.

So there's your "theoratical" nancy. Sh.it. I wasn't talking about tearing soft gentalia type tissue, I'm talking chunks off muscle and I'll say it again any kid can do a fish hook, poke you in the eye, rip your scrotum etc etc. That's not the direction that was being taken with the whole claw dilly until I brought it up that it is preposterous to fashion in your mind some screwy idea that you can tear and rend flesh from a human body with a claw handform.

I call bull.sh.it it is your job to shut me down with pics or vids of you doing this on an inanimate roast beef even without skin.

Yum cha, I can kill chickens just as easily as the next guy.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

In the Xing Yi I practice I have never been introduced to this hand posture (does not mean anything though). In Li Tianji's excellent book he makes mention of it though.

Cheers
Jake

PS If I throw in another $10,000 can you teach me how to fly too?

Hang gung is extra beyond the $10,000.00 petition.

however, i will teach a third year student a form with a very long standing leap that looks like something out of a Beijing opera!

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

. That's not the direction that was being taken with the whole claw dilly until I brought it up that it is preposterous to fashion in your mind some screwy idea that you can tear and rend flesh from a human body with a claw handform.

I call bull.sh.it it is your job to shut me down with pics or vids of you doing this on an inanimate roast beef even without skin.

Yum cha, I can kill chickens just as easily as the next guy.

Umm...

Lord of the Theoretical, Great Sceptic and Nihilist, Butt Cheeks Super Glued By A Still Frozen ****:

That is precisely what one of my teachers is famous for in China.