Yi Jin Jing

[sanjuro_ronin]

Keeping out tendon healthy and flexible is crucial and any exercise that helps is great.
We can't really strengthen tendons, they are made of collegen fibers, but we can strengthen the muscles the tendons are attached to and keep said tendons strong by make sure that the agonist-antagonist muscles are strengthened.

[wenshu]

Keeping out tendon healthy and flexible is crucial and any exercise that helps is great.
We can't really strengthen tendons, they are made of collegen fibers, but we can strengthen the muscles the tendons are attached to and keep said tendons strong by make sure that the agonist-antagonist muscles are strengthened.

There is tendon hypertrophy it is just not nearly as pronounced as muscular development.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17524067


Any Gymnast will tell you, especially Ring specialists. Progress on Iron Cross and similar straight arm holds is measured in years precisely because of the slow metabolism of connective tissues.

A dead hang, no kipping muscle up on the rings has taken me nearly 18 months. It puts a huge strain on the tendons especially the elbow so over training is dangerously easy. I can't do ring workouts more than once a week, sometimes twice else I'll have to skip a week or two while my forearms recover. In my case it's not an issue of pull up or dip strength it is purely difficulty getting through the transition which is where all the stress on the elbow is.

[ShaolinDiva]

Well, in acupuncture, you can treat the sinew / tendon /ligaments. They are effective in treatment when you have needles in the right point locations especially with certain ligament pulls. It works on the sinew channels which are different meridians. It really is amazing how it works. Western medicine offers you rest only. Needle treatment can improve your situation in a day with the right acupuncturist.

Now that being said, the other day, my Shaolin shifu instructed a few of us to move our qi through the sinew channel to improve our certain movements. In TCM, we normally don't really think about qi in those channels as much as the other main meridians or acupunture points. When I visually directed the qi flow through the sinews, it did indeed make my body move more effortlessly.

Mind over matter? Shaolin is all that ...

[pazman]

I like Yijinjing.

I've learned 3 different versions. I've learned a Shaolin version, with many different variations on each movements. Some I like more than others. I've learned some variations with dynamic tension which I think are cool.

I've learned a standardized version which I really like. This would be the version you would learn if you attended a sports or wushu school here in China. I've found most "standardized" wushu in China to be ****, except for this and the version of Baduanjin that goes along with it.

Then there is an advanced version of the standardized routine which is used in performance competitions. Competitions for qigong routines are stupid but this version is very challenging and very cool. While I've learned the movements it will be many years still until I can pull them off without looking like an idiot.

[monkey mind]

My martial training is currently centered around wado ryu karate & I'm not interested in changing that, but I have long been interested in yi jin jing & would love to learn it as a supplementary/general health practice. I live in northern Thailand where shaolin teachers are either non-existent or very much private. Are there schools at shaolin or elsewhere in China where I could go just to learn yi jin jing & shaolin qi gong? Thanks.

[LFJ]

I'll start off with a question for LFJ as you studied with Shi Deyang and you have mentioned that in his videos Deyang only shows bare versions of the actual forms. I suspect the same (or even more so) goes for his videos on Ba duan jin and Yi Jin Jing. So the question is if Deyang actually teaches different levels of softness/hardness.

Well, yeah. Because just about nothing is explained except how to move. Proper breathing is not even talked about. So you really gain no understanding of the practice or how to do it properly anyway.

There are minor differences in the movements in both his Baduanjin and Yijinjing, like staying flatfooted instead of raising the heels, but they are all there. This is not a different level, but just a change on the video versions.

[rett]

Well, yeah. Because just about nothing is explained except how to move. Proper breathing is not even talked about. So you really gain no understanding of the practice or how to do it properly anyway.

There are minor differences in the movements in both his Baduanjin and Yijinjing, like staying flatfooted instead of raising the heels, but they are all there. This is not a different level, but just a change on the video versions.

Do you mean the videos show flat-footed but in actual practice he raises the heels?

Is the heel raise an optional thing? i.e. you can do it if it feels right; and it comes at the very end of the movement (and very end of the outbreath?). But it's also okay to not raise the heels? For instance if you're a bit tired and woozy that day, just getting started early in the morning and it's still not very light out yet so your balance is bad, or things like that?

[LFJ]

Do you mean the videos show flat-footed but in actual practice he raises the heels?

Is the heel raise an optional thing? i.e. you can do it if it feels right; and it comes at the very end of the movement (and very end of the outbreath?). But it's also okay to not raise the heels? For instance if you're a bit tired and woozy that day, just getting started early in the morning and it's still not very light out yet so your balance is bad, or things like that?

Right, in actual practice it's done raising the heels. For example, on the first exercise of Baduanjin raising the hands and also the heels. It has a practical function. This exercise pulls and stretches the waist, back, chest and abdomen to induce full circulation of qi and spread natural bodily fluids so that the entire body receives their nourishment. Raising the heels is drawing from the ground up, pulling and pushing negative energy (tiredness, laziness, stress, etc..) out of the top of the head (baihui). It's quite a different feeling from doing it flatfooted. The big stretch helps to put your energy in motion and wake you up a bit more.

[rett]

Thanks. So in that first baduanjin movement would breathe out as your hands reach their highest point (and then breath out a second time as the come to the bottom)?

Or would you reach the max point of the in-breath as the hands reach the top?

[LFJ]

With the fingers interlocked when the arms push up overhead they come closer together and compress the upper chest. You should therefore exhale to reduce restriction and create a fuller stretch. So you would breathe out as you stretch up, and then breathe in as you come back down. Elbows open to the side, allowing the chest to expend back to normal, and relax.

[rett]

Thanks for the interesting ideas. I've tried it the way you describe and it all feels like good stuff and makes sense even if the version of that particular baduanjin move that I've learned is different.

In case it's of interest, I've found that when movements involve chest compression instead of doing the exhale there it's also possible to just open the glottis so as not to "clench" the breath. The airway is open so any extra breath is pushed out by the chest compression and you avoid overpressuring the lungs. Then as you continue with the relax phase of the movement you breathe out the rest normally.

Also in his version of that movement I've never seen my teacher lift his heels. There is a heel lift in a later movement. In BDJ-1 the feeling I've been working with has been both pushing up into the sky and down into the ground together (as best I understand it) like you're leading weight from your hands into the ground (as if you're a pillar between the foundation and roof of a building). So a heel-lift would take it in a different direction.


But again, there are so many ways to combine and use the same set of principles in movements, and so many styles of BDJ.

And of course your point about vids leaving out key points stands.

[LFJ]

Yeah, there are so many different versions of BDJ. I'm not sure how much they might change the function, but I've seen some interesting variations.

In Shi Deyang's version sections 1, 3, and 6 are done with heel raises.

Here he is doing the first three sections the "right way":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqLX2bH9GBg

[rett]

Very nice video, thx. I wonder if the soundtrack's by Imee Oomi?

The BDJ-1 there looks almost exactly like a stretch that one of the coaches has had us do as part of the warmup at taiji. I agree that it's very vitalizing.

Here's a very different Shaolin Ba Duan Jin, all eight movements. It starts from about 0:50 in the video. Heel lift on movement 5.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcJzD...endscreen&NR=1

I hope this isn't too off-topic for a Shaolin Yi Jin Jing thread. AFAIK this is part of the preparation for Yi Jin Jing so it can't be completely irrelevant.

[ghostexorcist]

I wrote a very short article about dating the Yijin Jing manual several months ago. For those who have read Meir Shahar's book, you know that evidence dates it to 1624. I explain a political / patriotic reason for why this time was probably chosen. Stan Henning gave it the thumbs up. Have a look:

http://www.historum.com/blogs/ghoste...ng-manual.html

The info is actually a small part of a much longer article that isn't done yet. My research interests have done a 360, so it will be some time before I'm done with it.

[Empty_Cup]

I wrote a very short article about dating the Yijin Jing manual several months ago. For those who have read Meir Shahar's book, you know that evidence dates it to 1624. I explain a political / patriotic reason for why this time was probably chosen. Stan Henning gave it the thumbs up. Have a look:

http://www.historum.com/blogs/ghoste...ng-manual.html

The info is actually a small part of a much longer article that isn't done yet. My research interests have done a 360, so it will be some time before I'm done with it.

For those of you, like me, that haven't bought Meir Shahar's book there is a free excerpt/sample available through Google books: http://books.google.com/books/about/...d=KiNEB0H6S0EC