Differences in the forms between lineages

[Grond]

This question is for Sifu Phil Redmond:

I was on your website http://wingchunkwoon.com/ and noticed that the videos you have of the forms look quite different from the the way I've been taught them. In particular, there's less shifting(none, maybe?), and much more footwork/stepping movements. Is this characteristic of the William Cheung method of ving tsun? Do you guys do this to emphasize mobility?

[Grond]

Anyone else want to field this?

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I do not know if I would be of any help as your question seems to focus on the TWC method. I am affiliated with Sifu Chung Kwok Chow of NYC and his forms have progressed over the years. In addition I also trained in WT several years ago, I left that org around 1991 and I was also trained back in 82 by a student of Augustine Fong in Seattle. Each system provided some differences but the essence followed similar ideas. With the exception of Sifu Chow reversing the Wu and Fook Sau in the first form.

PM me if you wish to discuss this in more detail or open this thread up to other lineages.

Peace,

Dave

BTW: Are you of the TWC line?? If not what lineage do you draw your art from?

[Vajramusti]

Dave- I think it's an offshoot of Moy yat's teaching.
An inference from the profile and location.

His question is not specific enogh for me. A general answer--- mobility is very important without being sloppy.

[anerlich]

I've been training in TWC since 1989.

If by "shifting" you mean pivoting or sliding the feet as opposed to taking steps, then you are correct - TWC just about always steps, lifting the feet when moving. One rationale is that this requires you to be less dependent on the quality of the surface you are on and your footwear. There are arguments for and against this rationale.

Other lineages have different philosophies and methods - and every one has advantages and tradeoffs. That the style has a coherent and logical set of methods that work as a whole is less important than the actual details. Also different styles suit different people.

[russellsherry]

hi kung fu fighter, i startd training in a modified wsl way back in 1976, i was first taught sil lin toa tan sau relaxed , and flat coming from the centerline ete,
than after i left that sifu trained at williams for a little bit , williams school"S use the raised tan becuase william belive"S that chines are in genral shorter people so your block should be at the pont of contact, sifu phil and victor willl correct me if i am wrong. than my sifu randy teaches yet another way and as he say's it not what it is wrong or right it what work for you , yip taught in different stage"s and as a young man he used power as a older person he used footwork remember it is
not the postion of the block that 's impotant it is when the blow come's in and you bloack that punch that's the important , thing don't get cuaght up in being to complex in fighting keep it simple russellsherry

[sihing]

To the contrary, I believe the details are important, and in the end do make a difference. Shifting vs. Stepping, I do believe one is better than the other, but just because I believe that doesn't mean I can or won't use either. In general, stepping is more effective for any and all persons (not just a few), because it allows you better positioning in the end, regardless of surface or shoe worn. When shifting or dragging the feet it is IMO harder to move adequately in regards to speed of movement and distance of movement to allow one to be in the right space at the right time, all the while getting out of the way of your opponents tools and striking him. What's easier or more effective, stepping 1' foot out of the way to the side or sliding/dragging the foot 1' to the side out of the way? Why would I side step? The essentials of this concept are, it is better to not be there to accept your opponents weapons so therefore upon initiation of his movement you side step to evade and defend it, regardless of what the attack is, while getting out of reach of his secondary weapons/tools (e.g. so when the opponent throws a lead right hook punch toward my left upper gate, I step in towards it using a variety of hand tech, Tan/Bong/Bil/Lop etc., this side step puts me temporarily out of range of his combo attack or live side). When side stepping you are out of his reach but still in your range of attacking his body and or head, so in essence this is a safe place for you to be and a dangerous place for us to be in regards to our opponents chances of success in the encounter.

In the WC I practice, "Ideally" the hips do not move independently, it stays in line with whatever direction the feet and knees are pointing. Take note I said Ideally, as it is not always possible when in combat, but is the ideal. The reason for this is when facing the opponent, using two hands at the same time to attack or defend, you need to be square with him up to a point, without giving away your whole body for his attack. You also have better balance in attack, retreat or whatever you have to do when your hips are inline with the lower body.


James

[Vajramusti]

anerlich sez:
Other lineages have different philosophies and methods - and every one has advantages and tradeoffs.
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sihing sez:Shifting vs. Stepping, I do believe one is better than the other, but just because I believe that doesn't mean I can or won't use either. In general, stepping is more effective for any and all persons (not just a few), because it allows you better positioning in the end, regardless of surface or shoe worn.
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I dont do TWC but Anerlich's characterization is broader and more inclusive.

There is a difference between developmental training and application-but it is pointless to make a lengthy brief on this thread.

[Phil Redmond]

This question is for Sifu Phil Redmond:

I was on your website http://wingchunkwoon.com/ and noticed that the videos you have of the forms look quite different from the the way I've been taught them. In particular, there's less shifting(none, maybe?), and much more footwork/stepping movements. Is this characteristic of the William Cheung method of ving tsun? Do you guys do this to emphasize mobility?

The forms are different from most 'mainstream' Yip Man WC. I know because I studied other Yip Man lineages for 13 years and even taught a different WC before I met Sifu Cheung in 1983. We don't shift because the surface you're on might not allow it. You may have to fight on an uneven surface like in a field, a rocky surface, or even on a plush carpet. And yes, we emphasize mobility as does most WC. The things that most comment on is our tan sau which covers the upper gate, the fuhk sau which has the path going away from the center, and the bong sau with the wrist straight. If you have any more queries please feel free to ask.
PR

[Grond]

Thanks Sifu Phil. Thanks to all of ya'll as well...

Sihing73, as Vajramusti surmised I'm from si-tai-gung Moy Yat's lineage. Is that a specific enough statement?

[old jong]

More than only Chor Ma and Tor Ma there are other ways to move in "non TWC Wing Chun"!...
*my line's footwork also includes:
- Sheung ma (biu Ma)...a step!
-Toi ma
-Forward and backward bracing (combinations front and back steps with shifting)
-inside and outside facing steps (combnations side steps with shifting)
-Juen Ma (180 degree turn)
-Crab stepping

All of this =mobility

[couch]

More than only Chor Ma and Tor Ma there are other ways to move in "non TWC Wing Chun"!...
*my line's footwork also includes:
- Sheung ma (biu Ma)...a step!
-Toi ma
-Forward and backward bracing (combinations front and back steps with shifting)
-inside and outside facing steps (combnations side steps with shifting)
-Juen Ma (180 degree turn)
-Crab stepping

All of this =mobility

Great post.

Again, it is not important what we choose to do, but I feel it IS important to understand why something is done a certain way. This is not to turn into a Vs. post, just an informed one:

Why do I drag the foot? To develop power. To develop that spring I need to launch myself in different directions while in combat. Why do I shift? It's like a tree blowing in the wind - the roots stay and the top moves while the branches are free to do what they want. Plus getting a little bit of power and reach also helps.

I think this takes time to develop and it's no easy task when your back leg is burning all to h3ll. But noone said it'd be easy. !

And as Old Jong said, there's many more ways to move.

Happy training,
Kenton Sefcik

[Phil Redmond]

Great post.

Again, it is not important what we choose to do, but I feel it IS important to understand why something is done a certain way. This is not to turn into a Vs. post, just an informed one:

Why do I drag the foot? To develop power. To develop that spring I need to launch myself in different directions while in combat. Why do I shift? It's like a tree blowing in the wind - the roots stay and the top moves while the branches are free to do what they want. Plus getting a little bit of power and reach also helps.

I think this takes time to develop and it's no easy task when your back leg is burning all to h3ll. But noone said it'd be easy. !

And as Old Jong said, there's many more ways to move.

Happy training,
Kenton Sefcik

Try dragging your foot and doing a Jo Ma (running horse), while an opponent is quickly back peddling away from you. Then doing the same thing while try lifting your foot. You'll see which one gets you to the opponent faster. Then try draging your foot on a plush carpet or an uneven surface like on rocks on ground with holes in it. Also, try shifting while someone pushes you laterally just at the moment of your shift. then do the same thing while stepping to the side and absorbing the force.
I'm against shifting or dragging because of my experience with doing it for 13 years. To me dragging the foot is like driving a car with the emergency brake on. I see no other contact fighters doing this. But of course people will say but their not WC. Then I'll say but they're fighting and winning. If I'm wrong then you should be able to drag your foot against a really fast and mobile boxer. It's funny because EVERY WC person that I've met in person can't catch up to me when dragging their foot. I'll put money on it
PR

[Vajramusti]

Sorry to disagree with you Phil.

The basic ground connected stepping in various ways on flat ground is for developmental purposes and i prefer them for development purposes.
Once the sensitivity to the ground is achieved and the ground connection understood- one can adjust to any ground that one feels and to any distance that one senses- you can even walk in. Development and lat sao work are different stages of training.

To use a boxing analogy--- roadwork and skipping rope in that sport is for development of some attributes. In shadow boxing and sparring you do it differently. Then you adjust agin in real fights.

Joy.

[sihing]

Joy, Kenton,

I think we have all debated this subject before, or maybe this is just deja-vu? Ideally I wouldn't want to shift or drag my feet in any way, but at the satellite school I teach at you could easily get away with something like that as the floor surface is very slippery, on other surfaces you will encounter problems. Also, if it is a development tool only and not used in actual combat, this is a contradiction IMO to WC training & fighting philosophy. Why practice something and not do it in reality? Especially when it comes to your mobilitiy in a fight. Maybe this is why Dr Jan taught Chan Wah Shun the way he did? I agree with Phil's statement in this regard. Try any of those scenarios while dragging or shifting vs. stepping, yeah you could use the shifting/dragging method but it is not as effective as stepping. But I must say at times the shifting does come out in the heat of the battle, nothing wrong with this as the goal in not to perform perfect WC movement but to get the job done. I just don't agree that this is an effective way of movement on the whole. The way I step can be compared to tap dancing, very little rise of the foot while turning from one direction to the other, and this works on any surface.


James