So cool I kicked my Mom in the head

[Oso]

.....




but, anyway....ok, so anyone buy the link between Japanese Ninjitsu and Chinese Vagabond Style made in Leung Ting's book "Skills of the Vagabonds"?

[red5angel]

Mat, not saying you're angry, just saying you're arguing for the sake of arguing.
My point was that too many people think Ninjas are more than what they really were. You are trying to somehow support that.

I can show factual information that Ninja are more myth than reality and the trend to wear black outfits ala ashida kim and merge samurai concept with ninja concept is a modern blur thing. They were utterly and totally different.

what exactly, in your opinion Kung Lek, were the ninja? It's irrefutable fact that there were ninja "clans" or ryu. While they didn't have a severe impact on the politics of the time periods they existed in, they participated in various military and political maneuverings.

The balck costumes come from stage performances later in Japanese history.

[Mr Punch]

The courts I am talking about were the Imperial Courts. There were no "samurai courts". The imperial courts were those of teh emperor himself and the shoguns who kept court.

Thank you for finally telling me what courts you were going on about. You wrote about 'the Imperial court' which is not the same as what you're saying now... now you have pluralized it and are including the shoguns. How nice. By samurai courts, I was talking about the shoguns, and also the courts of the lesser ranking samurai (note I'm saying lesser as in lesser than the shogun, not as in low ranking): courts being places where they... er, held court. So I'm happy you have now decided to agree with me.

The scholarly agreement regarding the official period of the samurai is agreed upon as 1156, i was being open by lettiung it go back another 6 years. the establishment of the role of Shogun was 1185.

This is what I'm saying when I ask you what you are reading that gives you 'the scholarly agreement'! Just give me one source, that's all I ask! If it's a scholarly agreement you must be able to name one book where scholars have agreed...?! Just one! You can do it! Tell you what, you can go away and research it, cos I'm not gonna be around for a while!

So what are you talking about with the 'official period of the samurai'? You do realize;

1) The word samurai was not even used until the (forget the name)-Momoyama Period of Oda Nobunaga and Toyotomi Hideyoshi which was about 30 years ending in 1600?
2) That the first shogun was established in the reign of Kammu who died around 800?

You seem to mistaking the establishment of the samurai for the shogunate starting in the Kamakura Period (1192 - I know that one off the top of my head! いい国作ろう！Ii kuni tsukurou! Ii kuni being a pun on 1-1-9-2 and 'good country').

Well, not only were there shoguns before then (I can think of two who were very powerful and who wielded considerable influence) but the elite who became known as the samurai had already been established by the end of the Heian Period: their weapons, their armour, the start of the code of bushido. And they had been recruited from thugs, mercenaries and guards.

there was no flux in the caste, there was no change in the code of honour or loyalty (mostly loyalty) a samurai could be poor or a man of means, but you are making it sound like they were shifting all over the place like sand in wind, and they were not. Samurai were samurai were samurai.

Again, you are not telling me where this is coming from. The samurai changed considerably. The bushido code was only formalised in the peaceful time of the Edo Period. IThe supposition that it was the norm among samurai was a myth to romanticize the bored, effete or bullying class that they had become. Many of them ignored it completely.

As for the ninja, there is a prominent folk story that Minamoto no Yo****sune was trained as one. Whilst this is most likely nonsense it suggests that there influence was already quite extensive by the time of the Kamakura Period. Shotoku Taishi's establishment of the buddhist orders as close to the emperor back in the 8th century was probably responsible for the growth in subterfuge and backstabbing.

The ninja grew hand in hand with the samurai, and were only really separated when there was peace in the Edo Period, and the samurai wanted to create their honourable image, at a time when the ninja were no longer needed.

I can show factual information that Ninja are more myth than reality...

Very Yoda! With you it's always 'I can show factual info' but you never do do you!?

I'm arguing not because I like it particularly, but because you're talking bollocks.

[Mr Punch]

...but, anyway....ok, so anyone buy the link between Japanese Ninjitsu and Chinese Vagabond Style made in Leung Ting's book "Skills of the Vagabonds"?

Haven't read it, but since I'm arguing pointlessly it seems I'll say No.

Leung Ting seems to like spurious semi-historical links,a s can be seen by his attempt to link wing chun with muay thai that seems to have fallen out of favour now.

[David Jamieson]

mat-

we are running around the same apple tree here calling it an apple tree.

yeesh.

I disagree with some of your "facts", I am not adverse to given sources, I have indeed done so.

Anyway, we continue when you get back.
Until then, ninjas as they are currently portrayed in teh modern conception is a complete misconception.

[red5angel]

Again, you are not telling me where this is coming from. The samurai changed considerably. The bushido code was only formalised in the peaceful time of the Edo Period. IThe supposition that it was the norm among samurai was a myth to romanticize the bored, effete or bullying class that they had become. Many of them ignored it completely.

Mat, would it be more true to say that the Samurai had a code, but it for the most part only applied to the Samurai class? Of course how consistantly they stuck to it is determined by human nature - meaning as human beings, even well trained and sometimes, not always, well disciplined strayed from how they are supposed to behave.

[Shaolinlueb]

the only good ninja is a dead ninja... or a nacho ninjette