Star Wars Episode III (Spoilers, Questions & Answers)

[Shaolinlueb]

so vaders force power gets extremely low after the whole fallin volcano thing? so if he never did he could have probably taken the emperor out earlier? but the emperor is stronger then yoda? so how powerful is luke in the force? not as strong as vader correct? maybe the weaker vader. or is vader still powerful but uses most his stuff to keep himself alive? and the reason they could defeat the emperor because sideous was using his power to keep vader alive too?

i just ordered a ton of EU graphic novels.

Star Wars: Heir to the Empire (Thrawn Trilogy #1)
Star Wars: Dark Force Rising (Thrawn Trilogy #2)
Star Wars: The Last Command (Thrawn Trilogy #3)
Star Wars: Jedi vs. Sith
Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi: The Sith War
Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi: Knights of the Old
Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith
Star Wars: Dark Empire
Star Wars: Dark Empire 2

[MasterKiller]

so vaders force power gets extremely low after the whole fallin volcano thing? so if he never did he could have probably taken the emperor out earlier? but the emperor is stronger then yoda? so how powerful is luke in the force? not as strong as vader correct? maybe the weaker vader. or is vader still powerful but uses most his stuff to keep himself alive? and the reason they could defeat the emperor because sideous was using his power to keep vader alive too?

No. Vader just keeps getting more and more powerful, but his body is broken. So, while he has the Force, sometimes he just can't perform. Had he not been mutilated in the fight with Obi-Wan, he probably would have been even more powerful, But, as it is, he's still an @ss-kicking machine and probably the most powerful Force-Sensitive ever.

Vader obeys Sidious because A) Sidious is like a father-figure to him, B) Sidious keeps him alive via the Force, and C) Sidious tortures him when he fails. I mean, an elephant can easily stomp it's trainer, but it obeys the trainer because it has been conditioned to obey. Sidious has been working on Anakin for a loooooong time.

Sidious is not stronger than Yoda in his prime. The Jedi have lost their connection to the Force because of their reliance on technology and their arrogance. This was glossed over in EP II, but while resurface in EP III. Had this not occurred, Sidious never would have set the plan in motion. The Jedi were simply too powerful before. Remember Nute Gunray's fear at the beginning of TPM when he find out two Jedi are onboard? Yet, in ATOC, they get picked off right and left...

[Shaolinlueb]

No. Vader just keeps getting more and more powerful, but his body is broken. So, while he has the Force, sometimes he just can't perform. Had he not been mutilated in the fight with Obi-Wan, he probably would have been even more powerful, But, as it is, he's still an @ss-kicking machine and probably the most powerful Force-Sensitive ever.

Vader obeys Sidious because A) Sidious is like a father-figure to him, B) Sidious keeps him alive via the Force, and C) Sidious tortures him when he fails. I mean, an elephant can easily stomp it's trainer, but it obeys the trainer because it has been conditioned to obey. Sidious has been working on Anakin for a loooooong time.

Sidious is not stronger than Yoda in his prime. The Jedi have lost their connection to the Force because of their reliance on technology and their arrogance. This was glossed over in EP II, but while resurface in EP III. Had this not occurred, Sidious never would have set the plan in motion. The Jedi were simply too powerful before. Remember Nute Gunray's fear at the beginning of TPM when he find out two Jedi are onboard? Yet, in ATOC, they get picked off right and left...

ok. yoda mentionede how they let the force get clouded. so palpatine jsut waited for his time to strike. until the jedi weakened.

[MasterKiller]

ok. yoda mentionede how they let the force get clouded. so palpatine jsut waited for his time to strike. until the jedi weakened.

Correct-a-mundo.

[Shaolinlueb]

No. Vader just keeps getting more and more powerful, but his body is broken. So, while he has the Force, sometimes he just can't perform. Had he not been mutilated in the fight with Obi-Wan, he probably would have been even more powerful, But, as it is, he's still an @ss-kicking machine and probably the most powerful Force-Sensitive ever.

Vader obeys Sidious because A) Sidious is like a father-figure to him, B) Sidious keeps him alive via the Force, and C) Sidious tortures him when he fails. I mean, an elephant can easily stomp it's trainer, but it obeys the trainer because it has been conditioned to obey. Sidious has been working on Anakin for a loooooong time.

Sidious is not stronger than Yoda in his prime. The Jedi have lost their connection to the Force because of their reliance on technology and their arrogance. This was glossed over in EP II, but while resurface in EP III. Had this not occurred, Sidious never would have set the plan in motion. The Jedi were simply too powerful before. Remember Nute Gunray's fear at the beginning of TPM when he find out two Jedi are onboard? Yet, in ATOC, they get picked off right and left...

ok. yoda mentioned how they let the force get clouded. so palpatine jsut waited for his time to strike. until the jedi weakened.

[red5angel]

Vader is stronger than Palpatine, but Palpatine is keeping him alive with the Force. That's why Vader must obey Palpatine. Plus, Palps tortures Vader from time to time when he dissapoints Palps, so Vader is afraid of Palaptine, to the point of trembling in his presence.

I assume you must be getting this out of the novelization?

i just ordered a ton of EU graphic novels.

crap, I would have warned you away from the Thrawn Trilogy. They're still based on Zahn's crappy ass novels.

ok. yoda mentionede how they let the force get clouded. so palpatine jsut waited for his time to strike. until the jedi weakened.

MK, where are you getting your info on the reason why the Jedi are losing touch with the force? I know they hint at a dependance on it but Yoda says pretty clearly that the dark side is clouding the force and making the Jedi weak.

[MasterKiller]

I assume you must be getting this out of the novelization?

In the Empire Strikes Back novelization, Vader trembles as he bows down before the Emperor's hologram transmission. I think it also mentions the physical torture as well, but it's been a while since I looked at it.

I haven't looked at the ROTS novel.

MK, where are you getting your info on the reason why the Jedi are losing touch with the force? I know they hint at a dependance on it but Yoda says pretty clearly that the dark side is clouding the force and making the Jedi weak.

In AOTC, Mace says "We must inform the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished."

The reason they have lost their connection is hinted at all over the place.

Yoda admonishes Qui-Gon for his arrogance.

Yoda admonishes Obi-Wan for his arrogance.

Mace admonishes Anakin for his arrogance.

Dexter Jexter admonishes Obi-Wan for relying on machines to decipher the markings on the Kamino Darts that Jango uses. "Even a Jedi should know the difference between knowledge and wisdom."

Jocasta Nu, the Jedi librarian, says "If something is not in our archives, it does not exist." Another example of Jedi arrogance.

in ROTS, Qui-Gon's ghost comes back from the dead and admonishes Yoda for the Jedi Order's arrogance.

The Dark side is rising because the Jedi have stumbled from their path.

Just an educated guess.

[Shaolinlueb]

so MK
when luke completes his training, is he ever as powerful as the jedimasters of old?

[red5angel]

so MK
when luke completes his training, is he ever as powerful as the jedimasters of old?

by the time he's fighting the Yuzhang Vong he's pretty powerful, but I Can't remember reading anything that led me to believe he was as powerful as say Yoda, Vader or Palpie.

[MasterKiller]

To borrow a line from The Matrix...Luke's got the gift, but he ain't the one.

Like Red5 says, he's powerful, but probably doesn't hold a candle to any of the big Prequel players like Mace, Yoda, or Sidious.

[Judge Pen]

To borrow a line from The Matrix...Luke's got the gift, but he ain't the one.

Like Red5 says, he's powerful, but probably doesn't hold a candle to any of the big Prequel players like Mace, Yoda, or Sidious.

What about Obi-Wan or Qui-gon? Is he comparable in power to them (when he finished his training)?

[red5angel]

I think the trick is that Luke was the one to bring balance to the Force by basically hitting the reset button, but he's too old to start the training....

The Dark side is rising because the Jedi have stumbled from their path.

I guess I don't see all of that stuff as a commentary on the Jedi reliance for technology so much as a commentary on their hubris. Jocasta Nu assumes that the Jedi archives are right not because they are technological archives but because they are Jedi Archives.
I can't currently recall the exact conversation with Dexter, but the whole reason Obi Wan is there is because he can't rely on the droids. Dexter is pointing out that the Jedi can't know everything, even if they do have the archives and droids.
Include all the "admonishing for arrogance" and it seems to me its not the technology but the arrogance and hubris of the Jedi Order that is part of the problem, and probably what the Dark Side is feeding on to cloud their vision.

[MasterKiller]

I think the trick is that Luke was the one to bring balance to the Force by basically hitting the reset button, but he's too old to start the training....

No, Vader is the Chosen One. He fulfills the prophecy when he kills Sidious in EP VI.

I guess I don't see all of that stuff as a commentary on the Jedi reliance for technology so much as a commentary on their hubris. Jocasta Nu assumes that the Jedi archives are right not because they are technological archives but because they are Jedi Archives.
I can't currently recall the exact conversation with Dexter, but the whole reason Obi Wan is there is because he can't rely on the droids. Dexter is pointing out that the Jedi can't know everything, even if they do have the archives and droids.
Include all the "admonishing for arrogance" and it seems to me its not the technology but the arrogance and hubris of the Jedi Order that is part of the problem, and probably what the Dark Side is feeding on to cloud their vision.

That's basically what I meant. I kind of see the technological reliance as part of their hubris, and I think Dexter's quote hilites the issue.

DEXTER JETTSTER: This baby belongs to them cloners. What
you got here is a Kamino saberdart.

OBI-WAN: Kamino saberdart? ...I wonder why it didn't show
up in our analysis archive.

DEXTER JETTSTER: It's these funny little cuts on the side
give it away... Those analysis droids you've got over there
only focus on symbols, you know. I should think you Jedi
would have more respect for the difference between
knowledge and wisdom.

OBI-WAN: Well, Dex, if droids could think, we wouldn't be
here, would we? (laughing) Kamino... doesn't sound
familiar. Is it part of the Republic?


What he's saying is that Obi-Wan should know better than to rely on machines, not that the Jedi should expect some things are beyond their archives.

This whole series plays out as a Nature vs Technology parable. The huge, mechanized Empire is defeated, after all, by a bunch of Ewoks with nothing more than sticks and stones. The paradigm between the Sith extending life for immorality and the Jedi merging with the Force for immortality also fits into this model.

[Shaolinlueb]

interesting

i jsut got done reading the shadows of the empire graphic novel. it was okay. the video game and toys make a big deal out of this dash rendar character and prince xizor wasnt made to be all that powerful or important. but in the comic they arent that really big of a role. it seems to be two stories. one with xizor wanting to kill luke and the one with bobba fett.

i was in barnes and nobles and i took a look though the star wars return of the jedi infinities. the emperor doesnt die at the end and vadar wins and helps his son find teh emperor to restore power. wierd, did they continue those books?

so what your saying with luke is. hes vadars son, he will never be as powerful as vader. even to the old jedi he wont be poiwerful, cause obi wan looks pretty **** powerful in attack of the clones. so luke turned jedi into more paramilitary type people guards of the empire? so are there books or comic of stuff that happens long after return of the jedi. where luke is dead and there have been full trained kids and new jedi masters? how long does darth vader stick around using the force with obiwan and yoda?

[MasterKiller]

interesting

i jsut got done reading the shadows of the empire graphic novel. it was okay. the video game and toys make a big deal out of this dash rendar character and prince xizor wasnt made to be all that powerful or important. but in the comic they arent that really big of a role. it seems to be two stories. one with xizor wanting to kill luke and the one with bobba fett.

Xizor is the head of the Black Sun, a powerful criminal syndicate that pops up every now and then. Vader eventually kills him by ramming his star destroyer The Executor into Xizor's floating city thing because Xizor almost convinces Palpatine that he should take over Vader's role as the Emperor's right-hand man. Xizor also has a thing for Princess Leia. All that stuff takes place bewteen ESB and ROTJ.

i was in barnes and nobles and i took a look though the star wars return of the jedi infinities. the emperor doesnt die at the end and vadar wins and helps his son find teh emperor to restore power. wierd, did they continue those books?

I don't think it continues that story line, but there are a lot of infinity versions. I have one where Darth Vader fights Darth Maul.

They are basically "what-ifs".

so what your saying with luke is. hes vadars son, he will never be as powerful as vader. even to the old jedi he wont be poiwerful, cause obi wan looks pretty **** powerful in attack of the clones. so luke turned jedi into more paramilitary type people guards of the empire? so are there books or comic of stuff that happens long after return of the jedi. where luke is dead and there have been full trained kids and new jedi masters? how long does darth vader stick around using the force with obiwan and yoda?

Right. I don't know if they have stuff after Luke dies. I've never seen anything that goes that far out. In the new books and stuff, Luke is about 45 and is more of a background character at times. Han and Leia have twins, Jacen and Jaina, and a younger son named Anakin; and Luke has a son with Mara Jade named Ben. So, a lot of the stories revolve around them.

All this stuff takes place in the New Jedi Order series.