The Advantage of Wing Chun Kuen

[reneritchie]

There are a lot of posts talking, importantly, about problems in the implementation of Wing Chun Kuen. These will always exist. Any art will only ever be as good as the artist performing it, and will rise and fall because of this.

Through the history of MA, systems have been created, proved their value, grown stagnant over time, been overthrown by some new upstart, and the cycle has repeated.

Some turned to WCK over older arts, some to JKD over WCK, some to SBGi over JKD, and eventually the next thing will come along. That's nature.

What endures, however, beyond personal style or educational or implementation system is underlying concept or methodology and core movement. Similar beings with similar needs will gravitate towards similar solutions.

IMHO, this is an area where WCK shines, regardless of whether or not sifu or student de jour can individually take advantage of what it offers (and not every way suits every wayfarerer).

So, to me, the advantages to WCK, the reason why I enjoy it so much, are simply these:

1. Not attribute dependant. While strength, speed, flexibility, resilience, etc. can help and can make up for mistakes, the art itself does not require them. There are no acrobatics or contortionistic movements, and the average person, with dedication, can achieve the postures and paths of the art.

2. Systematic/Progressive curriculum. If you had to sit in class and hear a professor yell out 1000 random historical facts, then be asked to write a coherent paper, you'd have problems. Wing Chun Kuen's material is presented in a clear, logical, consistently progressive manner, with reference sets which lay and expand upon a core foundation, and training exercises to actualize the same material.

There are other reasons too, of course, but those are what I look for in anything I choose to invest time.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'm going to take a slightly different approach to commenting on your initial post, Rene...(different than the usual remarks that I, and some others, usually make regarding the "problems" with wing chun).

Basically...I liked your post.

The only thing that bothers me about it was this:

1. "Not attribute dependant. While strength, speed, flexibility, resilience, etc. can help and can make up for mistakes, the art itself does not require them."

Speed, flexibility, resilience, and yes...strength...are essential for someone to be able to FIGHT effectively against another good fighter - regardless of style. So the art of wing chun does require a fairly significant amount of these things, imo.

While it's true that, due to the nature of the style, "strength" moves and "speed" moves are minimized - compared to some other arts (shotokan karate comes to mind in terms of strength - and TKD comes to mind in terms of speed - to name but two)...but that doesn't mean that strength and speed aren't important if one does wing chun.

They most certainly are....as well as things like cardio endurance and good old fashioned consistent hard sparring against skilled, resisting partners/opponents.

What I liked about your post was that it reaffirms the overall fighting efficiency that certain approaches to wing chun can produce - IN THE INDIVIDUAL - if certain conditions are met, as I mentioned above.

I, for one, don't want to lose sight of that in lieu of all the other discussions going on as of late that serve to point out certain problems with the art.

[Phil Redmond]

Thanks Rene. Finally a post on the strengths of WCK. I do believe that WC trains attributes, but it's training methods are more concise and easier to develop than many other arts. I can take the principles and attributes in WC and use them in any MA. That's a real strength.
Phil

[old jong]

I always felt that Wing Chun is very common sense and realistic for the real world.People who practice it make it good,average or not so good.

[SAAMAG]

What endures, however, beyond personal style or educational or implementation system is underlying concept or methodology and core movement. Similar beings with similar needs will gravitate towards similar solutions.

IMHO, this is an area where WCK shines, regardless of whether or not sifu or student de jour can individually take advantage of what it offers (and not every way suits every wayfarerer).

So, to me, the advantages to WCK, the reason why I enjoy it so much, are simply these:

1. Not attribute dependant. While strength, speed, flexibility, resilience, etc. can help and can make up for mistakes, the art itself does not require them. There are no acrobatics or contortionistic movements, and the average person, with dedication, can achieve the postures and paths of the art.

There are other reasons too, of course, but those are what I look for in anything I choose to invest time.

I see what you're saying Rene. Styles like capoeira aren't going to able to be practiced by everyone, and this limitation is set by it's inherent acrobatic attributes necessary for the movement. You're saying that wing chun in and of itself can be practiced by anyone...and in that context...it's true.

And of course there's different strokes for different folks so to speak, everyone is in it for different reasons. Me personally, it's to make me more effective in fighting. And keeping in that context, the idea that attributes aren't necessary then becomes false. Fighting is inherently hard on the body, and requires physical exertion higher then that of just "practicing". It's chaotic, brutal, and non-stop. If you're not in shape, you're going to have a rude awakening. If you have spent years practicing in the air or on a wall bag, but never applied it against someone resisting you...again, you're in for a slap in the face. Blah blah blah blah blah....you get the idea.

Wing chun is indeed a great art and it's concepts and principles are sound, and transverse amongst just about any striking art. That's my reasoning for practicing it...because no matter what style Im practicing...I can still practice "wing chun".

[reneritchie]

I had a classmate who I've seen run 100 meters in just about 10 seconds, and take a Thai roundkick to the head, not flinch, and then complain he bit into the ice he'd been sucking. He was a CFL prospect level football player and, though he didn't lift weights, for fun he liked to go into gyms and lift more than the power lifters to make them feel bad.

However, we could both do WCK.

I agree completely that attributes are important, and believe WCK cultivates some, and independant conditioning training is vital to cultivate others, however I will not always be in the shape I'm in now, and will not always care about fighting, and WCK will still be something I can do as years go on.

Like any tool, WCK can make a so-so person okay, and good person great. The total percentage will always be dependant on the initial potential.

[Hendrik]

do you think the Wing Chun is more like the mature lady or the young girl with the candy??

http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&id...railer&intl=us

look at that pak da, sun punch, and the snakesss!

[Vio]

La meilleure partie de wing chun, est l'effet de surprise.

[Vajramusti]

look at that pak da, sun punch, and the snakesss!

((Hey they are more fluid than Chuck Norris!!))

La meilleure partie de wing chun, est l'effet de surprise.

((Ha- hotath chor marle oi rokum hoi))

[sihing]

I'm going to take a slightly different approach to commenting on your initial post, Rene...(different than the usual remarks that I, and some others, usually make regarding the "problems" with wing chun).

Basically...I liked your post.

The only thing that bothers me about it was this:

1. "Not attribute dependant. While strength, speed, flexibility, resilience, etc. can help and can make up for mistakes, the art itself does not require them."

Speed, flexibility, resilience, and yes...strength...are essential for someone to be able to FIGHT effectively against another good fighter - regardless of style. So the art of wing chun does require a fairly significant amount of these things, imo.

While it's true that, due to the nature of the style, "strength" moves and "speed" moves are minimized - compared to some other arts (shotokan karate comes to mind in terms of strength - and TKD comes to mind in terms of speed - to name but two)...but that doesn't mean that strength and speed aren't important if one does wing chun.

They most certainly are....as well as things like cardio endurance and good old fashioned consistent hard sparring against skilled, resisting partners/opponents.

What I liked about your post was that it reaffirms the overall fighting efficiency that certain approaches to wing chun can produce - IN THE INDIVIDUAL - if certain conditions are met, as I mentioned above.

I, for one, don't want to lose sight of that in lieu of all the other discussions going on as of late that serve to point out certain problems with the art.

Rene posted that WC is not DEPENDENT on strength, speed, stamina and other physical attributes, he didn't say WC doesn't use them, it's to what degree that is the difference between WC and other MA. IMO if you have average human physical abilities for your size, you can make it work for you fine. But why is it that we always have to compare to the infamous "GOOD FIGHTER". What are the odds of really meeting a "GOOD FIGHTER" on this street (Good fighter meaning of course and high quality MMA fighter, lol), unless of course you have attitude problems and ego problems and go looking for it, then you will sooner or later meet that person ( I live in a large city and don't even get close to confrontational situations, except in traffic and finding a parking spot at the mall, lol). Here's an example for you, for all of us Men on this forum that are at least 5'9" and 160lbs, try this and see what happens. If you have family or friends with kids, try to find a kid that is around 9 or 10 years old, probably weight anywhere from 75 to 90lbs, teach them how to throw a punch, bring a small padded glove with you and get them to put it on their strong arm and let them punch you once square in the head. If you have to squat down for them to hit you, then do it. After the hit, try to remember the affect the punch had on you. Now imagine what would happen if that person was a small woman, weighing 110-120lbs with training behind them, hitting you 4 to 6 X in a second. What affect would this have on you? It would probably cause you some damage, especially when they stopped hitting with their tiny fists and started using their elbows and knees, attacking all areas of your body. What I'm trying to say is this. WC uses efficient movements to attack the opponent from short distances, but also it does this in a very stealthy non-telegraphic way. All of these things listed above make the properly trained WC practitioner faster than they are and the opponent less able to stop the attack, due to the efficient movement being executed at a closer distance to the opponent with non-telegraphic attacks. With a art based on these principals the opponent does not have lots of time to react. And if your smart about it, the element of surprise will be added to the equation, which amplifies the effectiveness even more. Strength, speed and stamina are important and you do need those physical attributes to some degree, but coordination and knowing how to use your tools effectively is more important IMO, when it comes down to actually succeeding in a self defense situation. And this is what we are talking about right, SELF DEFENSE. Not fighting in NHB tournaments and dealing with that caliber of fighter on the street.

James

[black and blue]

I liked WCK because it was relatively simple and, where I trained, was taught through a pretty solid curriculum. Within the club I made progress quite quickly and, of course, found this encouraging . I liked it too because, as everyone says, it seemed efficient.

Left it for XingYi (and now have the opportunity to learn some Bagua) for a variety of reasons. For reasons regarding 'art/method' I guess I saw more that I liked in XingYi.

Things I don't like about WCK... not particularly powerful (in my experience - have seen far more power generated in both XY and Bagua for example); not as efficient as I once believed (again, my opinion).

For all that is good in James' post, the "five or six hits to the head a second" is misleading, IMO. I have heard William Cheung can do 10 or 11, I have seen someone hitting pads at 4 or 5... but the power when hitting has always looked weak to me.

In the UK there's many clubs that advertise using the words "doesn't use force against force"..... are there any martial arts that use force against force? That is to say, are there any that say you can only be good if you become as strong as an ox?

One WT instructor in the UK once told me that, unlike Shotokan Karate, WT doesn't use F against F when blocking/deflecting!

Maybe I'm misunderstand his ideas, but for me F against F is two objects meeting directly, the one that has more strength beats the other. Two trains colliding head on is F against F.

A speeding train being derailed when its hit from the side is not what I'd call F against F... in this case the lesser force beats the stronger... and most Shotokan blocks I've seen work on this kind of principle.

Most of what I liked in WCK when I started, I still like. What I don't like is the crazy claims about being "most efficient", "best self-defence", "most street-applicable" etc. In the UK these descriptions are used too often with WCK in my opinion.

[Ernie]

bnb=Things I don't like about WCK... not particularly powerful (in my experience - have seen far more power generated in both XY and Bagua for example); not as efficient as I once believed (again, my opinion).


Funny explosive power [knocking someone off there feet] is one of the basic fundamentals of the wing Chun I have learned; the system would be empty if not for the ability to shock and drop people

I would understand your view from the chain punch happy people , those people that tend to favor speed [empty] over cultivating body mechanics to support power release [ sitting and taking position ]

The reason I enjoy wing Chun so much is it short cuts the development process [when trained right and with a goal in mind]
The development of
power [by way of refining body mechanics ,focus and mental/emotional intent '' killer mindset '' don't play his game go in get the job done ]
Speed [relax and burst. economy of motion, by way of nearest weapon and cultivating proper body alignment]
Sensitivity [chi sau, weapon sparring]
Timing [chi sau, sparring, weapon sparring]
Adaptability [chi sau, sparring]

All the attributes are addressed it's just the quality of the training method, the direction and goal of the teacher and students that defines the level that those skills/ attributes will rise to

that is were the problem stems , many lack the training methods , commitment , personal responsibility , to take the steps needed to achieve a high level of [Wing Chun attributes ]

They will favor one way over another and be unbalanced or the listen and follow to much misconception and never ''walk there own individual walk ''

This is not a problem with the base training system [wing Chun] just the people’s methods and goals

The training system is a great system because it offers you a blue print to cultivate the desired attributes

But you can lead a horse to water

[Hendrik]

Through the history of MA, systems have been created, proved their value, grown stagnant over time, been overthrown by some new upstart, and the cycle has repeated.

.

Rene,


This above statement is true IMHHO only if this statement is describing a ------ FIX WELL DEFINE mechanical steps to produce some kind of result.


1, AS


But,
It will not be True for something which is ALIVE. or the ART itself.
See, we dont say Bethoven's moon light sonata is grown stagnant over time, and overthrown by some Yani in 2000.

And people from all over the time who train to play the moon light sonanta will attain some "Bethoven's essense" . That "Bethoven's essese" will sure has its pro and con since the reality of the duality world is a coin will have to faces.
but, that is beyond evolution.

I formulate the model of LE or localized evolution to explain the differences and evolution. and here I am raising another term --- Art's lively Essese or the Soul or Art's Soul or AS.

This AS is beyond time if there is an AS. IE from Beetoven to Yani, from picaso to that nuts Starry starry night guy- Van Go... to Leonada da vinci to Micheal angelo....from Bruce Lee to Mas Oyama to Osense to Wang Xiang-Zai to the elder Garcie....etc. There is a AS in their every piece of expression. People in general call the AS as Style. Well, IMHHO, Style is very vague. AS is more then a Style and including Style but it clearly specific to it has to do with AWARENESS or live . without the AS the style will be dull, dead, narrow and limiting instead of Boundless(lifely free, creative , peace.). and to probe deeper, the sense of Boundless,has to link with AWARENESS.


Thus, the question is how to transmit this AS instead of get stuck at the rigidly FIX WELL DEFINE mechanical steps which the AS has left in the art long time ago.

When it is becoming a fix mechanical steps similar how to make bugger in Mcdonal. then it doesnt has the AS and not much Awareness at all.






2, AS and AWARENESS


I know, some people here or in other forum is complaining about if I am teasing them. The truth is not. I am trying to bring the AWARENESS in. And with Awareness, while one is "craking" the "code" or questioning or drilling or examine either a Beetoven Moonlight sonata or SLT or even investigating one's breathing. One will see "things" one will recognize and develop the AS. The way to get into the awareness and AS is not giving specific instruction step but let it stuck and let it having a breakthrough. and to break through one needs to evoke a certain degree of Awareness. and one finds one's true capability there instead of has to always become a follower or a student. One can create and free to create. and what one has breakthrough in one's WCK or art will reflect on one's daily living. Everything is one piece. to learn is to grow to grow needs to change to change needs to break away from the old personal conciousness.

But, if detail instruction is given or shared, then , one is going to implement that instruction step. there is no different then programming a computer to do something. how many time one read those how to make a million dollar or secrete success booK? how detail is the author of those books give for one to implement? but why is people forget two days after reading it? IMHHO, because the AWARENESS is not activate, the AS is not there, and the mind look at all these instruction step as "ok, I know it now" no more fun. what is next. thus, one never really learn and change and grow. one knows but knows is not grow.



So, to get the mind really do the job, the Zen way is trap it into the gate of no door, and when one find away to crosss the gate. then it is no longer the same person. the past is past. without that, one is just doing all kind of stuffs with a tired stuck old soul.


And, if one sees someone is keeping Mixing /importing changing their sets or making up more od ball training.. that is the sign of the person has no idea about AWARENESS. as it is said in the Buddhism, that is called searching for truth outside the body. meaning because one is not sure where to find the solution or solutions one keeps importing and making up things. they think to gather as much as possible, that can show thier speciality or the wealth or the oldest or the origin.....ect. however, those act shows thier insecurity. and show thier no deep understanding in the AS.





3. AWARENESS


So what is this got to do with The Advantages of WCK?

Well because, in my lineage of Yik Kam, the first stanza of SLT instruction is

"collect the Yee union with the Shen in the equal shoulder stance."

Yee=intention
Shen= spirit for direct translation, however it is in the surface level refer to Attention, and deep level refer to Awareness
Equal shoulder stance = YJKYM = the stance width is between 1 to 1.5 shoulder stance.


So, the first thing the stanza direct to is Awareness.

as how to collect the Yee and union with the shen, well, we can test that in an EEG machine today if one have that training. Since people talk about how to handling pressure...etc well, Awareness the core of how one dealling with handling pressure. and again, an EEG machine will show if one has that training as research shown from the meditators or Qi gung masters.




So, IMHHHO, WCK is advance and directly dealing with the Awareness which transcent at the first day, first instant, first movement of SLT.

With Awareness and be able to aware of what we are not aware is the key to grow us in life.



The top secret of WCK is AWARENESS. when one dont stuck in habitual action or trap in one's thoughts or following the instruction like a robot, there Awareness shine. IMHO. SIu Niem Tau or less thinking isnt it?


so, if one want to learn about ALIVE footwook. Go walking in the water and be aware of what is going on and how one handling one's body under the influnce of the current...etc instead of sitting in a sofa and keep thinking how the dead 100 years ago do the top secret footwork.

And, BTW, dont clamp that stupid can between the knees too. that is just cut off your awareness of your lower part of your body. and make it DEAD.



Further more,
and AWARENESS is boundless, thus, to get there it cannot be some points or some lines or some thinking or some fomulars. All those stuffs is trapping one in a type of thinking or a paradigm. A true paradigm shift is be able to switch paradigm if one needs to swictch.


And AWARENESS is also Compassionate. because when one aware of who one is and who other is. one sees a similarity of human. Thus, one transcent beyond discrimination because there is not much different between one and others.
Thus, I have never believed in the True Zen buddhist will anti-Qing. Because as Christ story of stone the prostitute. who is so pure to stone others? so what to anti? what to claim righteous about?


Furthermore, it is not the history of red boat 1850 or Yik Kam or Yim Wing Chun or Ng Mui I am interesting. AS is what I want. what is the AS of different person. different style and different era. For AS never die and timeless similar to

http://www.mfiles.co.uk/Scores/moonlight-movement1.htm

one always can use it somewhere when one switch one's paradigm. one always can add something to it to make it even more alive but still with a taste of Moon light sonata.

if we know the AS we can go even beyond the DNA to make it ALIVE within us and become a part of one's life.




Evolution without Awareness is a Chaos. Awareness without Evolution is empty.




1840, opium war, chinese lost everything from pride, wealth, tradition, value, believe.........
but some chinese realized one thing --- Awareness or peacefull silence or living in Now.
and it is those help them to rebuild under the condition of having nothing left.
But Awareness is not a thing. it is a gift from God to everyone of every race in the earth equally which cannot be taken away. with it one can improve one's life and always capable to appreciate, be happy, and in peace unconditionally. And they call that Awareness --- Spring.


Spring is AWARENESS and to praise the Spring is to praise the AWARENESS which everyone has it by their birth right. and that is true equality.


IMHHHHHO


OSU!

[PaulH]

There is beauty in WC. =)

"And beauty is not a need but an ecstasy.

It is not a mouth thirsting nor an empty hand stretched forth,

But rather a heart enflamed and a soul enchanted.

It is not the image you would see nor the song you would hear,

But rather an image you see though you close your eyes and a song you hear though you shut your ears.

It is not the sap within the furrowed bark, nor a wing attached to a claw,

But rather a garden for ever in bloom and a flock of angels for ever in flight.

People of Orphalese, beauty is life when life unveils her holy face.

But you are life and you are the veil.

Beauty is eternity gazing at itself in a mirror.

But you are eternity and your are the mirror."

[sihing]

bnb=Things I don't like about WCK... not particularly powerful (in my experience - have seen far more power generated in both XY and Bagua for example); not as efficient as I once believed (again, my opinion).


Funny explosive power [knocking someone off there feet] is one of the basic fundamentals of the wing Chun I have learned; the system would be empty if not for the ability to shock and drop people

I would understand your view from the chain punch happy people , those people that tend to favor speed [empty] over cultivating body mechanics to support power release [ sitting and taking position ]

The reason I enjoy wing Chun so much is it short cuts the development process [when trained right and with a goal in mind]
The development of
power [by way of refining body mechanics ,focus and mental/emotional intent '' killer mindset '' don't play his game go in get the job done ]
Speed [relax and burst. economy of motion, by way of nearest weapon and cultivating proper body alignment]
Sensitivity [chi sau, weapon sparring]
Timing [chi sau, sparring, weapon sparring]
Adaptability [chi sau, sparring]

All the attributes are addressed it's just the quality of the training method, the direction and goal of the teacher and students that defines the level that those skills/ attributes will rise to

that is were the problem stems , many lack the training methods , commitment , personal responsibility , to take the steps needed to achieve a high level of [Wing Chun attributes ]

They will favor one way over another and be unbalanced or the listen and follow to much misconception and never ''walk there own individual walk ''

This is not a problem with the base training system [wing Chun] just the people’s methods and goals

The training system is a great system because it offers you a blue print to cultivate the desired attributes

But you can lead a horse to water

Good post Ernie. What I got out of it was this. You as an individual have the choice to be able to use it effectively or not. If you practice it half a$$ed then you will be a half a$$ed when using it. Put the work and intense effort into it that it deserves on a consistent basis, and then it will work for you, and well for that matter. IMO some arts are limited for the average person in the area of effectiveness. But there will always great practitioners of every art, just because they love it, and can make it work for themselves and their body type. IMO Wing Chun will work for everyone equally, as long as they do the work. This doesn't mean every WC practitioner will be Bruce Lee like in fighting caliber, but it will make them the most effective they can be in the reality arena, which to me means getting out alive, not submitting them or knocking someone out.

As for the 4 to 6 punches being ineffective or not very powerful, I too know students in the school that concentrate on just that. When they do conditioning class, and hit the heavy bag, they are essentially tapping the bag with no effect on it. When we see this we emphasize the error with this type of approach. You have to develop the technique and coordination first in the punch, and then you start to increase the execution speed and power of the punch as your skill with it increases. Many student prospects that come into the school to investigate the art, say the same thing regarding the chain punches. At this point I usually ask them to put their hand up in the air and from a short distance I strike them with a punch, after I ask if it hurt. So far 100% of them say yeah, well then I say what affect would that same punch have if it was with full power and hit you in the head, on a repeating basis? You have to have a combination of both, speed and power, not just one alone.


James