so I watched a UFC fight last night...

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . Yes, Phil, IME WCK is a sound fighting method. My criticism isn't of the method itself, but rather of most of it's so-called "practitioners" and snake-oil salesmen who give the art a bad name.

Whew . . , thanks Terence. I was hoping to hear that from you. I understand that not everyone's goal is to be a fighter. But, I'll have to agree with you that "we" need to do more contact/realistic training if "we" want to be effective fighters. Of course you need sound basics to achieve that goal.
Phil

[sihing]

One -- among many -- of the problems WCK people have looking at these sorts of fights is they have the WCK blinders on, for example believing their "theory" provides objective standards, such as that straight punches are inherently better (superior) than looping punches (is the front straight kick better than the wide thai kick?). My point, gangsterfist, is that you don't have a clue about the reality of fighting (because you don't fight) and so you have no real basis on which to judge -- you're basing your views solely on your (poorly conceived from hearsay) "theory" of fighting. That's why I said to go do it yourself and then make the comments. You may see, for example, that many of those "mistakes" you saw were intentionally chosen by the fighters for a reason, and a good, or at least, defendable, reason. I could explain them to you but unless you have the experience, it wouldn't do any good (you'd still have the blinders on). In theory so many things sound great; getting in the ring exposes most of it as BS.

The problem with this is that again you make a great assumption just based on Gangsterfists post that he has NO experience in the relem of fighting. Another thing, if a theory is sound and logical, like the straight punch is superior than the looping round, then it is about application, to which some do not understand. If looping punches is what comes out of you when the heat is on then the indication is lack of training, not using what is needed when the time is right? I've seen the UFC show also, although not on a regular basis, but what I have seen of the fights are not of the highest caliber, not to say that Coture and Lidell are lousy trainer/coaches, just that the talent pool may not be the best. The are better fighters on "CONTENDER", than on the UFC show. Plus, since when is the ring REALITY??

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

Mark wrote this:

"The problem with "WC principles" is that they are too one dimensional and require too much muscular power to be applied successfully in the realm of MMA's." -- Knifefighter

Hi Knifefighter,

Would you be willing to give one or two concrete examples of this problem? I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around exactly what you mean!"

........................................

I'd like to give an answer to this - because Dale (Knifefighter) is definitely right about the Vitor Belfort knockout over Silva - IT IS the closest thing to Wing Chun ever displayed in a NHB event.

And Belfort did it by first connecting with a rear cross...followed by a classic straight blast chain punch attack while literally chasing Silva from one end of the Octagon to the other in a straight line.

And his elbows weren't exactly "in" either - but they were closer to his rib area than a typical boxing punch.

But the chain punch attack IS very one dimensional, isn't it? (Silva obviously never saw it before - so he got caught...As a wise man I know has often said: "If you've never seen it before - it's probably going to hit you.")

And by "too much muscular power" being required, I think that Dale means the short range straight line striking that Wing Chun almost exclusively employs is NOT conducive to knockout power (no matter how many threads to the contrary that people like Hendrik choose to post)...it requires quite a few "typical" wing chun vertical punches to land to cause a knockout against a big, strong opponent - whereas one or two solid rear crosses, hooks, or uppercuts can often do the job.

The "problem" with the wing chun vertical punch is that the hips and shoulders are not in play (torque) the way they are in boxing...so BIG muscular power would be required to knock somebody out...

Hence Vitor Belfort's (wise) decision to use a more elbows flared out (and hip/shoulder torque rotation) method of delivering his version of wing chun punches.

Ah...but you say that the tailbone tucked in, power coming from the hips and center of the body will provide the extra power needed?...Too easy for your opponent to back (or circle) away from it and/or start to block or parry - another example of the one-dimensional aspect of wing chun attacks. (It's almost exclusively short range in nature).

Phil Redmond: I have the Belfort/Silva fight on tape - I'll send it to you...maybe you can post it on this forum?

As a final note: I AM an advocate of "typical" wing chun straight line striking - as long as other types of punches are also in the arsenal and used appropriately when an opening is there (ie.- Belfort "set up" the chain punch ending with a rear cross that connected and put his opponent on his heels...IME, the reverse can also happen - a few chain punches that land can set up an opportunity for a rear cross or hook punch fight-ender...or possibly the wing chun punches set up a kick, knees, elbows, a throw, a sweep, a takedown, an armlock, or a chokehold)...

but if you try to keep on straight line punching - a good opponent might easily recover - whereas completely changing the line of attack (and the method) has the element of surprise working for it.

And deception is a big part of successful fighting.

And one of the biggest elements required for deception is having various ranges, methods, strategies, and techniques to work with.

[sihing]

Mark wrote this:

"The problem with "WC principles" is that they are too one dimensional and require too much muscular power to be applied successfully in the realm of MMA's." -- Knifefighter

Hi Knifefighter,

Would you be willing to give one or two concrete examples of this problem? I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around exactly what you mean!"

.................................................. .....

I'd like to give an answer to this - because Dale (Knifefighter) is definitely right about the Vitor Belfort knockout over Silva - IT IS the closest thing to Wing Chun ever displayed in a NHB event.

And Belfort did it by first connecting with a rear cross...followed by a classic straight blast chain punch attack while literally chasing Silva from one end of the Octagon to the other.

And his elbows weren't exactly "in" either - but they were closer to his rib area than a typical boxing punch.

But the chain punch attack IS very one dimensional, isn't it? (Silva obviously never saw it before - so he got caught...As a wise man I know has often said: "If you've never seen it before - it's probably going to hit you.")

And by "too much muscular power" being required, I think that Dale means the short-range straight line striking that Wing Chun almost exclusively employs is NOT conducive to knockout power (no matter how many threads to the contrary that people like Hendrik choose to post)...it requires quite a few "typical" wing chun vertical punches to land to cause a knockout against a big, strong opponent - whereas one or two solid rear crosses or hooks can often do the job.

The "problem" with the wing chun vertical punch is that the hips and shoulders are not in play (torque) the way they are in boxing...so BIG muscular power would be required to knock somebody out...

Hence Vitor Belfort's (wise) decision to use a more elbows flared out (and hip/shoulder torque rotation) method of delivering his version of wing chun punches.

Ah...but you say that the tailbone tucked in, power coming from the hips and center of the body will provide the extra power needed?...Too easy for your opponent to back away from it and/or start to block or parry - another example of the one-dimensional aspect of wing chun attacks. (It's almost exclusively short range in nature).

Phil Redmond: I have the Belfort/Silva fight on tape - I'll send it to you...maybe you can post it on this forum?

As a final note: I AM an advocate of "typical" wing chun vertical striking - as long as other types of punches are also in the arsenal and used appropriately.

I have that tape also, and Vitor isn't using the typical WC chain punch for sure, but like the others have said it is the closest thing yet in the NHB fights that resembles the WC movements in any way.

As for the above from Victor, I do have some disagreements. Firstly, you do not need any more "Muscular Power" than to just raise the arms and shoulder to perform the punch correctly. Like Victor said, the power of the boxer’s punches mainly comes from a hip/shoulder rotation, utilizing the torque of the body, problem is trying doing this movement and chasing and/or retreating at the same time while punching?? If you can accomplish this maybe you can throw 2 punches per step? A good WC man can throw double that effect. Also, the power comes from not a torque of the body but from the whole body moving forward, as we all know, so it is a different power generation than the boxers, but not less effective. When I teach a introductory class to people checking out the school, I show them the chain punch and emphasize four advantages of this motion:1) straight line movements are faster movements than the curve/round punches, so therefore you can be a slower puncher but make up for it in efficient straight line movement, 2)the WC punches are non-telegraphic, meaning there is no wind up like the torque movements of the boxer/karate guys due to the fact they are not square with their opponents, so the opponent has a harder time to see the punches coming, 3)the WC punches allow movement at the same time since no torque is involved, like mentioned above, 4)the WC punches allow easier interrupt ability and the ability to go from offense to defense faster than other ways of punching. These are just four reasons, there are many others. The analogy I like to use is like a push, the punch is like a push with a snap on the end. If you were to push a fridge in your kitchen from one side to the other, would you go on the side of the fridge, put your palm on it and torque your body to move it, or would you get behind it and put your palms close to your center and push it across? I would do the latter, as this way you are using the whole body to push the heavier fridge, this is the same principal for applying the punch. It may be one dimensional, but like the example of Vitor vs Silva proved, when someone hasn't seen or experienced a movement like this, it will more than likely land on you, and in this case since WC chain punches are like a "Machine gun" action, once 1 is landed more are quickly on the way.


James

[fa_jing]

Guys don't charge in without great care because they either want to avoid a takedown or walking into a punch. You have to remember that these guys are fairly evenly matched. I saw a good level of standup in the semi-final fight.

The elbow that won the fight might as well have been from Wing Chun or any other Asian MA. Very well done. I'm wondering if other people see the validation that this gives the art you practice. Not to mention the other lessons about hanging in there, that one blow can change the outcome of a fight.

The most Wing Chun-like fighter I have seen in the ring is Kostya Tszyu. No, it's not wing chun, but it is crisp, highly technical fighting. Here's someone who can beat a hook with a straight, has a mean left hook of his own, uses footwork to dominate an opponent. Who has deceptive hands and can switch which hand is forward without swapping his feet. Who has all the qualities of a fighter from physical preparedness, to great courage, to cerebral calculation. That's the level of technique that I think is required to use wing chun or any other complex martial art effectively. Watch some of this man's fights if you get a chance.

[Ultimatewingchun]

fa jing:

What venue does Kostya Tszyu fight in?

Boxing...K-1...UFC...Pride...???

Never heard of him.

[sihing]

fa jing:

What venue does Kostya Tszyu fight in?

Boxing...K-1...UFC...Pride...???

Never heard of him.

He's a top ranked boxer if not a champion, Andrew Nerlich knows lots of this guy as he has mentioned him before, and Rolf C has mentioned that Kostya has been training with a Kung-fu teacher in Aussie land for a while now learning Iron palm for his fists and other things...

James

[t_niehoff]

sihing wrote:

The problem with this is that again you make a great assumption just based on Gangsterfists post that he has NO experience in the relem of fighting.

**If he had that experience, he wouldn't have made the post he did. Only theoretician/nonfighters would say those sorts of things. Just like you.

Another thing, if a theory is sound and logical, like the straight punch is superior than the looping round, then it is about application, to which some do not understand. If looping punches is what comes out of you when the heat is on then the indication is lack of training, not using what is needed when the time is right?

**The trouble is that "theory" may sound logical and seem sensible to you, but that it is flawed because it's not taking some important things into consideration that you can only discover by fighting. This is why the experience is necessary. Looping punches aren't inferior to straight punches; they each have advantages and disadvantages; they each have their place. I've met and worked with a couple of NHB fighters that throw lots of looping punches and they were former golden gloves boxerss. They know how to throw straight punches, they can do them in boxing. When they fight NHB, they change how they punch to take other aspects into account. If you fight, you'll see that. If you don't, you'll just have second-rate theory.

I've seen the UFC show also, although not on a regular basis, but what I have seen of the fights are not of the highest caliber, not to say that Coture and Lidell are lousy trainer/coaches, just that the talent pool may not be the best. The are better fighters on "CONTENDER", than on the UFC show. Plus, since when is the ring REALITY??

**If you don't think a NHB fight is reality, then go do it. It's always folks that don't fight that beleive they know what reality really is. Any one of those guys would destroy you in no time. But, they are lacking in talent! LOL!

[Knifefighter]

Would you be willing to give one or two concrete examples of this problem? I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around exactly what you mean!

WC is a very dogmatic style for the majority of its practitioners, as can be seen by reading through the posts around here. An MMA fighter, on the other hand, needs to be open-minded and willing to use whatever works best. He’s got to be well-rounded, able to not only throw straight punches and kicks, but also hooks, uppercuts and round kicks. He’s got to know when to move in and press the attack, but also realize when it is best to retreat and get out of trouble. He’s got to be able to stay outside, keep mobile, and know when to "be on his toes". He also needs to be able to get inside and maintain a sturdy base. Any "WC principles" that would be effective, such as including straight punches, are already incorporated into the MMA system.

The MMA fighter has to constantly confuse his opponents and needs a wide variety in his arsenal so that the other fighters have a hard time figuring out what he is going to do next. The MMA fighter may keep the fight standing in one match, take the fight to the ground in another, play defense in still another, while coming out and blasting in his next fight. He might finish one fight with strikes, the next with a choke, another with an arm lock, and still another with a leg submission. The WC philosophy, on the other hand, is generally one-dimensional and easily figured out by other fighters.

The MMA fighter needs structural, attacking, and defensive modes that are able to fend off or set up takedowns. The WC approach is not very effective in this realm.

MMA is also a very power-oriented game (this is one reason you don’t see a lot of boxing type jabs in MMA). A fighter using WC techniques will be hard-pressed to generate enough power to damage a well-conditioned MMA fighter that is in his weight class.

These fighters are being coached by some of the best in MMA. To think that you could somehow change the outcome of their fights by bringing in someone to "teach them wing chun principles" is ludicrous.

[Mark Swiadas]

Hi Victor and Knifefighter,

Thank you for your clarifications and examples!



--Mark

[Knifefighter]

Aren't elbows illegal in UFC fights?

Elbows are legal. The fight referenced above was won with a Muay Thai elbow.

[Kevin Bell]

[[What venue does Kostya Tszyu fight in?]]

Hey Victor,

Light welterweight if im correct, he's fighting Ricky Hatton in Manchester UK in June me thinks. Looks like its gonna be one h*ll of a fight. im sittin on the fence on this one as to who the winner will be though...

[Knifefighter]

The problem with this is that again you make a great assumption just based on Gangsterfists post that he has NO experience in the relem of fighting.

He DOESN’T have any MMA fighting experience. Nor do you.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Thanks for the info, Kevin.

Let us know how the fight turns out.

[Knifefighter]

The "problem" with the wing chun vertical punch is that the hips and shoulders are not in play (torque) the way they are in boxing...so BIG muscular power would be required to knock somebody out...

Exactly… once Victor lost some of his size and power and the other fighters had seen his one dimensional attack, he got smoked in subsequent fights.