so I watched a UFC fight last night...

[Knifefighter]

Also, the power comes from not a torque of the body but from the whole body moving forward, as we all know, so it is a different power generation than the boxers, but not less effective.

While you might be able to use this one time against an untrained guy on the street, it is not effective in the realm of MMA fighting.

the WC punches are non-telegraphic, meaning there is no wind up like the torque movements of the boxer

Every time you talk about boxing, you show your ignorance about it. Boxing doesn’t have telegraphic punches.

The analogy I like to use is like a push, the punch is like a push with a snap on the end. If you were to push a fridge in your kitchen from one side to the other, would you go on the side of the fridge, put your palm on it and torque your body to move it, or would you get behind it and put your palms close to your center and push it across? I would do the latter,

This is exactly the reason your punching will be less effective than a boxer’s punches. The body mechanics used when striking are analogous to the movements of throwing. The body movements in grappling or lifting are more analogous to your pushing example. That is why grapplers don’t rotate their bodies when they are producing power in grappling, but boxers do.

[Knifefighter]

and in this case since WC chain punches are like a "Machine gun" action, once 1 is landed more are quickly on the way.

The problem with the "machine gun" approach is that power production in human muscle decreases as you speed up the number of punches thrown.

[fa_jing]

I agree that the average level of ability on the "Contender" show is higher than in the UFC show. In fact, I don't want to take a UFC guy and teach him some wing chun. What I want to do is take one of the "contender" guys, teach him basic grappling and kick defense, then send him to the UFC. 'Cause if I'm going to train a guy, I want him to kick some ass!!

FWIW I like wing chun and other CMA alot. I think you could teach a bit more triangulation to MMA fighters. But mostly I think their stuff is tight. If they have bad defense, they have bad defense. If they can't make parrying work for them, it isn't because boxing/Muy Thai parrying is somehow inferior to Wing Chun parrying or the skill is less teachable. One thing, though - you won't catch them doing something they can't make work for them because of some "principle."

All the young fighters need to improve, that's why the coaches yell so much.

[fa_jing]

Kostya Tszyu has been dominant at 140 lbs in the world for a few years. Nobody in that weight class can touch him, but this weight class is not loaded with talent. Nevertheless, pound for pound he is one of the best fighters in the world and he is a joy to watch. He may be moving up to 147 and fighting De La Hoya this summer....

[sihing]

While you might be able to use this one time against an untrained guy on the street, it is not effective in the realm of MMA fighting.




Every time you talk about boxing, you show your ignorance about it. Boxing doesn’t have telegraphic punches.



This is exactly the reason your punching will be less effective than a boxer’s punches. The body mechanics used when striking are analogous to the movements of throwing. The body movements in grappling or lifting are more analogous to your pushing example. That is why grapplers don’t rotate their bodies when they are producing power in grappling, but boxers do.

Well then educate me Dale. Everytime I see a pro fight on TV I see allot of turning hips and shoulders, although done at a very fast rate with precision. If the punches were not telegraphed then how is it possible for the other fighter to evade some of them?? That fact is that boxers do not fight square, like the WC fighters do, therefore they have to move, even a bit, there shoulders and hips to execute their punches (jabs maybe being the exception). Although in the beginning stage of learning WC the power will not be the same, as one gets used to it and learns it well, the power will increase. Again, I would rather sacrifice a all or nothing approach to punching than being able to hit him many times a second with hard punches. For some reason people seem to mis-interrpret the WC chain punches as pu$$y punching, lol. Okay if that is the case then anyone would let me hit them on the nose with no worries then? I don't think so....

James

[sihing]

The problem with the "machine gun" approach is that power production in human muscle decreases as you speed up the number of punches thrown.

No problem, the brain will be punished enough after the 4th one anyways, from the trauma of hitting the skull walls back and forth. Grab someone's head sometime and shake it hard for a couple of seconds and see how they feel after...

Gotta run to the Kwoon, later....

James

[Knifefighter]

For some reason people seem to mis-interrpret the WC chain punches as pu$$y punching, lol. Okay if that is the case then anyone would let me hit them on the nose with no worries then? I don't think so....

A 10 year old girl could punch you in the nose and do damage if you just sit there and let her. Doesn’t mean she could do any damage if you were resisting, moving, and hitting back.

What I would be willing to do with you James is stand toe to toe and trade my boxing type punches to your face in exchange for your WC punching to my face for 30 seconds… no worries at all.

[Gangsterfist]

Well,

My personal experiences are as follows:

Karate tournaments, sparring (did about 4 or 5 during my karate days and medaled a few times, sparing was continous full contact with protective gear)

Been in 5 or so real street fights since I trained MA. One was 2 guys Vs me. Never really "won" or "lost" any of the fights. I dealt damage and took damage and was able to walk away. IMO I would say I won, since I was able to walk away. I have also fought a few drunks since I live near about 30 bars, but then again fighting drunks is easy so it doesn't really count. Most of them are in a walking black out when they come into my yard.

I have trained a bit with some marines, and will be going to a hardcore fighting seminar next month hosted by a kung fu teacher and his marine brother. It covers all grounds of fighting. The marine was in afghanistan and iraq, so he has real life expereince in life or death combat.

I have never tried out for a professional fight or an ametuer fighting circuit with the intention of going pro.

My experiences may not be as broad as some others here but I don't think that should matter in the terms of discussion. Since everyone here is just 1's and 0's on an internet msg board.

My main point of this thread was, and still is, if no one uses wing chun principles in professional full contact ring fighting, then how come we all say wing chun is so effective? I am not in any way dissing wing chun, nor am I wanting to start a Wing Chun VS MMA argument. That argument is old, and I don't wana dig up that dead horse and beat it some more.

So.....

I watched some more NHB K-1 and UFC since the last match I saw. Guess what, still I have not seen really any wing chun prinicples applied. Why is this? Is MMA more effective? Is wing chun just not really studied by ring fighters? You know a lot of us stroke our egos on this forum and say stuff like wing chun is very deadly and blah blah blah. Which, I don't doubt. WC in the hands of someone who is skilled with it could very well be deadly, just like any other martial art.

Really, I was trying to get some feed back as to why is it not used? Is MMA the only way to go in right fighting? Would someone who studied WC be worthy in the ring?

Now, if they were to train angle stepping, triangle foot work, centerline theory, bridging, and sensitivity, would they not be more effective? Obviously, since there is no wing chun guy in the ring thats all theory. I just found it amusing that all the major fights weren't using wing chun at all, and its a system where its known to be effective, or at least people say its really effective. Personally, in my real fights even the one time I had that was 2 guys vs me, wing chun has helped me out, I don't really doubt it. So, if wing chun is so effective why is it not being used, or why is something similiar not being used?

That was my observation.

To knifefighter:

I don't train WC to be a ring fighter. I train for health, to stay in shape, and protect myself. What do you train for KF? What are your experiences which makes your knowledge so much more vast than mine?

[Knifefighter]

What are your experiences which makes your knowledge so much more vast than mine?

You were commenting about using WC in MMA, something you have absolutely no experience with. By your own admission, you have never done a MMA fight.

I happen to have a bit of experience in MMA fighting. I have 10 MMA fights and about 40 NHB type weapons fights under my belt. I also competed as a Golden Gloves boxer and as a kickboxer.

I have a background in WC and have attempted to use it on a variety of occasions in sport fighting.

[anerlich]

If the punches were not telegraphed then how is it possible for the other fighter to evade some of them??

By that logic, if you train your WC students well, they should be able to hit you at will without you being able to pak sao or bil sao, since the WC punches are not telegraphic and even trained fighters cannot evade or block them.

So learning all the WC techniques for blocking attacks from out of contact range is a waste of time, as WC punches can never be seen, countered or evaded.

Doesn't add up, does it?

I would rather sacrifice a all or nothing approach

Good technical boxers NEVER use an all or nothing approach. And BTW, Jack Dempsey advocated the moving forward behind the punch approach you say is unique to Wing Chun. You should read his book, that way you'd know a little about boxing, it's on Stickgrapplers' MA archive site.

You've watched "Choke" and a few UFC's and instructionals, and you feel you're equipped to lecture people with years of BJJ and/or wrestling about grappling. You watch boxing on TV, and feel you know as much or more about it than Dale, who's been doing it for decades. That's your right, I guess, but don't get affronted if someone calls you on your prejudices, judgements made from a state of ignorance of the subject.

Much of boxing tactics, especially defense, are more efficient and economical, and safer, than some WC techniques. Do some real research sometime, at worst you might learn something.

If ANYONE in boxing, kickboxing or MMA thought that WC gave them significant advantages, they'd employ it. These people are not fools; inflexible thinking will not get you anywhere in any martial sport. There's lots of money to be made. If anyone though this stuff would give them an edge, they'd pick it up in a heartbeat.

My si-hing's school in Queensland entered fighters in an NHB show in Brisbane on the weekend. Twelve fights, nine wins, two gold and two silver medals. WC influenced kickboxing and BJJ..

[sihing]

By that logic, if you train your WC students well, they should be able to hit you at will without you being able to pak sao or bil sao, since the WC punches are not telegraphic and even trained fighters cannot evade or block them.

So learning all the WC techniques for blocking attacks from out of contact range is a waste of time, as WC punches can never be seen, countered or evaded.

Doesn't add up, does it?



Good technical boxers NEVER use an all or nothing approach. And BTW, Jack Dempsey advocated the moving forward behind the punch approach you say is unique to Wing Chun. You should read his book, that way you'd know a little about boxing, it's on Stickgrapplers' MA archive site.

You've watched "Choke" and a few UFC's and instructionals, and you feel you're equipped to lecture people with years of BJJ and/or wrestling about grappling. You watch boxing on TV, and feel you know as much or more about it than Dale, who's been doing it for decades. That's your right, I guess, but don't get affronted if someone calls you on your prejudices, judgements made from a state of ignorance of the subject.

Much of boxing tactics, especially defense, are more efficient and economical, and safer, than some WC techniques. Do some real research sometime, at worst you might learn something.

If ANYONE in boxing, kickboxing or MMA thought that WC gave them significant advantages, they'd employ it. These people are not fools; inflexible thinking will not get you anywhere in any martial sport. There's lots of money to be made. If anyone though this stuff would give them an edge, they'd pick it up in a heartbeat.

My si-hing's school in Queensland entered fighters in an NHB show in Brisbane on the weekend. Twelve fights, nine wins, two gold and two silver medals. WC influenced kickboxing and BJJ..

Andrew,

They may be able to attack me with me being unable to counter it, in the right range that is. Problem is most attack to early so therefore the WC punches will be seen. The key here is getting into the close range safely. When that does happen it is very hard to defend a WC punch. Remember when Cheung got tested on his punching speed, they basically said that if he got within a foot & half of you that most would find it very difficult to react fast enough, therefore they would get hit. This is due to many factors, Cheung's own natural gifts of fast hands, but also in his efficient striking movements.

Pro Boxers (in the lighter weight divisions) maybe don't use an all or nothing punching approach, but they have trainers, technology and time to learn this lesson. Those that don't have this luxury will throw the haymakers, which can still be effective if they land.

Yes I have watched Choke, and other BJJ videos but I don't ever recall "Lecturing" anyone on how to do BJJ. How could I since I'm no expert in that realm, but I do have enough years in the Martial Arts to form an opinion on things, like watching boxers box and wrestlers wrestle, lol. IMO some of their methods are less effective than what my WC has to offer. As for me trying to tell Dale a thing or too about Boxing, it is obvious, lol again. Boxers do not fight square on with their shoulders when they fight, so therefore they have to twist/rotate/torque their shoulders and hips to generate power and distance with their punches, this is obvious and you don't have to be an expert boxer to realize this. And concerning Dale, if it is wrong for me to challenge his boxing expertise, why is it okay for him to challenge mine concerning WC? It's fair to say I have more experience and expertise with WC as compared to Dale, and he criticizes my WC theories and concepts all the time.

Oh Yeah, when students from my kwoon decided to fight full contact they did very well, all with one technique that Sifu told them to use. Bil Sao side step and Kick with chain punch follow up. One fighter was warned for excessive contact in his first fight for landing this simple technique too much, so we too have had success with Contact fighting. This is all good regardless of where it comes from, so cheers to your Sihing Andrew for his fighters success.



James

[sihing]

A 10 year old girl could punch you in the nose and do damage if you just sit there and let her. Doesn’t mean she could do any damage if you were resisting, moving, and hitting back.

What I would be willing to do with you James is stand toe to toe and trade my boxing type punches to your face in exchange for your WC punching to my face for 30 seconds… no worries at all.

And what would this prove?? That you can knock me out and I can do the same to you?

Yes I agree that resistence, moving and also attacking is a much better thing to do than just sitting there. Anything can happen, the question is which Art better prepares one for that resistance, movement and hitting back?? You think MMA type tactics which involve learning many methods and requires more time, I think WC which takes less time and is simple once absorbed. Looks like we have a disagreement in opinions again Dale, so lets just agree to disagree.

James

[Gangsterfist]

Two guys got into a fight outside where my friend works. One guy hit the other guy once, he fell down and smacked his head on the curb. Putting him in a coma, he eventually recovered, but he got all that from one hit. The man who hit him was charged with attempted manslaughter. So real fighting carries real consequences.

So, yes KF, it is possible a 10 year old girl could hit someone and kill them in one hit.

Has there ever been a successful wing chun fighter in a professional MMA full contact type event? I am just curious, is all.

Personally, I am not really into violence, I am very laid back actually. I have lost it though before and picked a fight, everybody has done that before. Most of my fight experiences have either been ametuer competition (tournaments) or real fights. I guess that doesn't qualify me as an expert by any means in the MMA world, since I have never competed in a full contact MMA match. I also enjoy not getting injured, but thats a personal preference. I know tons of people who tried to compete and now have long term injuries, some are minor others have plastic joints now. Thats not for me.

However, my point being, if wing chun concepts are so combat effective why do I hardly see any in the ring. I think chi sao skills would definately help in clinch situations. Sparring at heavy contact they have helped me.

Knifefighter,

What are your experiences with wing chun in full contact MMA matches?

[sihing]

Gangsterfist,

I honestly believe that the MMA world are not really investigating the WC or have preconceived notions about WC, although I'm sure others on here have different opinions about this. Also, it maybe more difficult for them to incorporate our principals and concepts when some of what they already train in contradicts it. Too much to relearn and getting rid of old habits maybe too much for them to want to attempt and therefore take too much time away from their main training systems and development. As I understand it, each MMA fighter has a main style or method of fighting and builds upon that, some with grappling background emphasized that add in some stand up skills to supplement, visa versa for standup fighters and grappling. Would I want to fight any of these guys? Nope not really, as I too do not enjoy getting injured or pain, lol. But if the circumstance warranted it I would fight one of them if I had to in self defense or defense of a loved one, what choice would I have in those types of circumstance, to just give up would not be one of them. So therefore in those cases, the attack would be taken to them and not recieved by them, in order for more chance for success. If they can defend it and still take me out then at the least I tried, the opposite may be true also, know one can make 100% guarantees, but the difference in intensity levels (Spirit) and such can make that much of a difference IMO.

James

[Gangsterfist]

james,

I think thats what I was concluding also. I have friends who train in different styles are are really effective. One of my teachers encourages me to one day cross-train, but he says I should have several years in wing chun and I should have the system down. Well, I got several years down, and I have gone to a couple of their classes but I still feel akward doing their system, just because its different. I think maybe another 6 months or maybe even a year of training wing chun to refine some things then I'll go cross train on a serious level.

Perhaps thats just the case. Either way, you can incorporate crosses, jabs, compact hooks, round houses, elbows, etc into wing chun, and I think you can incorporate some basic wing chun concepts into other arts. I just think no one has perhaps found the method of which to do this effectively. Then again, who knows, I could be completely wrong.