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Thread: so I watched a UFC fight last night...

  1. #46
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    sihing,

    You are living in a fantasy world, swallowing all the "propaganda" expoused by the nonfighting/theoreticans in WCK. Those "machine gun punches" will get you killed if you try them against anyone with decent skills (you may be able to make them work against some stiff, but so will a reverse punch from the hip!). This is a perfect example of what I mean by theoretician -- if you ever tried it against someone with decent skills/attributes in fighting (not the "sparring" you demo'd on those links) you would not be saying these sorts of things. Go do it, man. Try it against a good NHB/MMA fighter and you'll see right away that you are wrong in your beliefs.

    No one can convince you that your beliefs are wrong by arguing with you -- in theory, all kinds of things sound reasonable. This is why there is so much BS in the "martial arts." Folks believe what they want to hear, especially if it can be presented or argued in some way that sounds reasonable or demonstrated in cooperative environments. But that doesn't mean it will work, particularly in a fighting environment against anyone with decent levels of attributes or skill. it's really only through actual experience fighting can any person develop a discerning mind and a critical eye that will allow him/her to see through the BS that surrounds us.

  2. #47

    Heads Up

    "No one can convince you that your beliefs are wrong by arguing with you." (Terence...talking to James Roller)

    THREAD AFTER THREAD...James argues endlessly with people who clearly have more knowledge and experience than he does - and stubbornly refuses to see anything other than what he wants to see (or has been told to see by his instructor).

    Maybe he means well, I don't know.

    But what is clear is that the net effect of all this is to hijack discussion-after-discussion as an attempt (consciously? unconsciously?) to throw it off course.

    There have been some excellent posts on this thread, in terms of analysis of Wing Chun and other MMA approaches to fighting - so let's not lose sight of that.

    I think what is emerging is a consensus, amoung some people anyway, that Wing Chun principles, strategies, and techniques have much to offer a good fighter if he understands both the strengths AND THE WEAKNESSES of the system...

    and makes his adjustments accordingly.
    Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 03-24-2005 at 09:57 AM.

  3. #48
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    Here's a simple example -- being able to finish/stop your opponent. For most WCK "practitioners" this is purely theoretical: they believe that if they do this or that, like "machine gun punches", it will finish their opponent. But they've never done it, and certainly never done it against someone with good attributes or good skill. They just *believe* should they ever need to fight, that their theories will work. Some others hold that they won't even try to finish (apparently, they at least recognize that they don't have the skills to finish) and talk about "escaping." In both cases, it's all theory.

    Who trains to finish opponents -- by actually finishing their opponents? Fighters. Boxers actually get in the ring and practice what they are trying to do: knock their opponent out. BJJist roll on the mat and actually practice what they are trying to do, choke a guy out or break a limb. These are difficult things to do. It takes a great deal of practice to finish someone. And you don't get that skill/ability without actually doing it. And doing it a lot. If you don't train to finish by actually finishing, you won't be able to do it against anyone with significant levels of attributes or skills.

  4. #49
    "You can incorporate crosses, jabs, compact hooks, round houses, elbows, etc into wing chun, and I think you can incorporate some basic wing chun concepts into other arts. I just think no one has perhaps found the method of which to do this effectively. Then again, who knows, I could be completely wrong." (Gangsterfist)


    ACTUALLY....a number of people (myself included) have been working on this very thing - because Wing Chun is basically a very close and straightforward linear infight - so finding ways to use techniques from other ranges and angles (like the ones you mentioned) makes so much sense...and while we're at it...let's not forget clinch work, takedowns, and grappling.

    On an earlier post you mentioned that certain aspects of wing chun chi sao training could be utilized while in the clinch - and you're right...and the same with being on the ground.

    There are a number of things that Wing Chun can bring to the MMA table - as you alluded to on the very first post of this thread - in terms of principles (ie.- centerline, ultra straight line striking, simultaneous use of both hands when striking, parrying, blocking... some basic trapping, grab and strike, heightened tactile sensitivity to the opponent's energy and force, etc...)

    but the BIGGEST thing to keep in mind, imo, are the striking opportunities Wing Chun presents when very close to the opponent...let's say...

    IN-BETWEEN the longer range punches and kicks - AND THE CLINCH. (As well as adding a few new tricks when actually fighting IN the clinch).

    This is where Wing Chun could really bring something "new and improved" to the MMA table, so to speak.

    But the other side to the coin is this:

    Other arts (boxing, Muay-Thai, kickboxing, wrestling, BJJ, etc.) have much to offer WING CHUN in the respective ranges that these arts concentrate upon.
    Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 03-24-2005 at 11:00 AM.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff
    sihing,

    You are living in a fantasy world, swallowing all the "propaganda" expoused by the nonfighting/theoreticans in WCK. Those "machine gun punches" will get you killed if you try them against anyone with decent skills (you may be able to make them work against some stiff, but so will a reverse punch from the hip!). This is a perfect example of what I mean by theoretician -- if you ever tried it against someone with decent skills/attributes in fighting (not the "sparring" you demo'd on those links) you would not be saying these sorts of things. Go do it, man. Try it against a good NHB/MMA fighter and you'll see right away that you are wrong in your beliefs.

    No one can convince you that your beliefs are wrong by arguing with you -- in theory, all kinds of things sound reasonable. This is why there is so much BS in the "martial arts." Folks believe what they want to hear, especially if it can be presented or argued in some way that sounds reasonable or demonstrated in cooperative environments. But that doesn't mean it will work, particularly in a fighting environment against anyone with decent levels of attributes or skill. it's really only through actual experience fighting can any person develop a discerning mind and a critical eye that will allow him/her to see through the BS that surrounds us.
    I'll answer both this post and one from Victor P.

    Firstly, I'm not trying to portray WC as a Martial Art this is unbeatable or that anyone that learns it is undefeatable, because simply put it is up to the individual to 1st learn it correctly and understand it, 2nd train hard consistently to make it your own, and 3rd to be able to use it when needed (don't freeze up when in a fight). I don't look at individuals and say because of this or that attribute that they personally possess that his style of fighting is effective, I look at systems and what they have to offer. There are plenty of other MA out there that are effective and to take anyone with any fighting experience lightly is the first mistake when in a confrontation.

    Now, to go out and test myself against a NHB fighting to see if my "Machine Gun" like punches work or not, is this a real test? Is the intensity level there? Will I be motivated enough to even want to prove this "theory"? Probably not. As Human Beings we have intelligence and the ability to theorize about many things. The same theories that I may have about my WC, the NHB fighter has also. Who's to say that I haven't knocked someone else out while training in the past to prove that my theories or my Sifu's theories work? No one here would know? Let's just say that I have total faith in the theory and have proven them to be fact to me. But since we are on a internet forum, everything we say is theory because there is no face to face interaction. My experience is not yours and visa versa. The facts are that the NHB fighter has to be able to apply what he does on someone to be effective at it, the same holds true of me and my abilities. So the question is how effective is their delivery system. No one can say that the punching action I use will not work or is "fantasy", because of so and so's skills or because of so and so's experience, because anything can happen in a situation, and no one can guaranteed a win in every fight they have.

    Another thing, the chain punch is not the only thing to look at here. As someone that has skill in WC you cannot just take one aspect and seperate it from everything else the encompassess someone's skill. Yeah, someone may be able to counter the chain punches because there is a counter, but built into the WC system and learned through Chi-sao and other methods is the ability to adapt and interrupt one's own movements. Plus who says I won't set up the chain punch with something else first? Too many factors involved to say that the technique or concept is "fantasy". Also, if the other fighter is capable of countering my technqiues then why am I unable to counter his? Because he is a unbeatable NHB fighter and trains like a mad man to full fill his ego?

    Victor,

    I do mean well, and I do not look at myself as all knowing and unbeatable. I've have always tried to be open minded and I have looked at other ways of doing things, and their methods. Also, my Sifu is not just a WC Sifu, but also an instructor in 3 other methods of fighting as well as a scholar in regards to Martial Arts in general. If you ever get the chance to see his library and video collections you will realize that for yourself. Just like Bruce Lee did, he has investigated many different ways to do Martial Arts and has come up with what I consider to be the most effective method I have seen so far, IMO.

    James

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff
    Here's a simple example -- being able to finish/stop your opponent. For most WCK "practitioners" this is purely theoretical: they believe that if they do this or that, like "machine gun punches", it will finish their opponent. But they've never done it, and certainly never done it against someone with good attributes or good skill. They just *believe* should they ever need to fight, that their theories will work. Some others hold that they won't even try to finish (apparently, they at least recognize that they don't have the skills to finish) and talk about "escaping." In both cases, it's all theory.

    Who trains to finish opponents -- by actually finishing their opponents? Fighters. Boxers actually get in the ring and practice what they are trying to do: knock their opponent out. BJJist roll on the mat and actually practice what they are trying to do, choke a guy out or break a limb. These are difficult things to do. It takes a great deal of practice to finish someone. And you don't get that skill/ability without actually doing it. And doing it a lot. If you don't train to finish by actually finishing, you won't be able to do it against anyone with significant levels of attributes or skills.
    So the top fighters hurt their sparring partners and break limbs and fight that intensly everyday of their fighting career? I don't buy it, because if they did there wouldn't be sparring partners to spar with, and the risk of injury to themselves would be much higher. Remember when Foreman got hit in a sparring session when he was fighting Ali and they had to delay the fight? It's physicall impossible to fight at high intensity levels on a daily basis, as the body will eventually break down and not be able to function. Why hurt yourself in sparring sessions and risk that when there is nothing at stake. It dulls your blade and takes the edge off when you really need it. Moderation is the key when sparring and training.

    James

  7. #52
    "...my Sifu is not just a WC Sifu, but also an instructor in 3 other methods of fighting as well as a scholar in regards to Martial Arts in general. If you ever get the chance to see his library and video collections you will realize that for yourself. Just like Bruce Lee did, he has investigated many different ways to do Martial Arts..." (James Roller)


    MORE OF THE SAME...listen James, you've really got to start having second thoughts before doing any more posts like this one.

    How could you possibly know how many videos, books, articles, etc. I have in MY COLLECTION ???

    Or the collections of many other people around here?

    Or how many decades, years, months, weeks, days, hours...I have spent (and continue to spend) investigating martial arts?

    How many boxing matches I've seen...UFC and PRIDE fights...how much actual sparring/rolling I've done ?

    How many actual streetfights I've had in my life?

    And again - the same with so many other people.

    You ARE living in a fantasy world, as Terence put it...because you think that "your sifu" is beyond everybody else - and because you think that "your" analysis of his methods is sooooooo accurate....

    WITHOUT GOING OUT AND TESTING YOUR THEORIES...in a real situation (ie. - sparring/fighting all out against a skilled opponent using methods that you and your instructor DON'T endorse).

    So much self-delusion going on here...but my goal now - where you're concerned - is to try and undo your hijacking when the threads involved interest me...

    because trying to convince you by logical argument (or trying to get you to put your theories to the test)...isn't working.
    Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 03-24-2005 at 11:21 AM.

  8. #53
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    Exactly what I was getting at victor. However, I am of the mindset if it uses the WC core concepts then in fact its wing chun. If it sounds like a duck and looks like a duck, then its probably a duck.

    Now, the one thing I see all these MMA guys do, is they play in each others kill zone, and they do not crowd the space. You know like you see those guys that do chi sao demo tapes and its just them executing a bunch of techniques at arms length. Attacking in their opponets kill zone. Where as good wing chun IMO, will crowd the space and get out of that kill zone. Get in close and destory the opponet. If my opponet expands, I expand, if they contract, I expand, so on and so forth.

    Of course going in and crowding the space is not with out risk. You will probably have to take a few hits when doing this. So, entry technique, and conditioning take into play here.

    Other than that, the sloppiness I see if probably from fatigue, and well anyone will get sloppy the longer they fight. So using wing chun effeciency may help you last longer in the ring. Of course you need to be conditioned still to be professional.

    In some of the fights I have seen that go into clinch situations, I see a lot of opportunities for close range compact elbow strikes, which I never see any one do. I see more of the muay thai type elbows. However, they are effective, there is no doubt about that.

    I once sparred a golden gloves boxer/military guy and he also does MMA, and he is good at it. He is a shorter stocky guy who is really fast. We were sparring with head gear and mma gloves. He was bobbing and weaving, and moving all around, while I was in my bai jong. We exchanged blows and I would try to stick. After a few rounds of this I noticed my footwork pretty much mimiced his to stick to him when he would move out of the way of my attacks. This went of for a while and I noticed a bunch of things about his style of fighting. It is different than mine, he did like 6 yrs of moy yat system or someone else before training with us. He also has a good friend who teaches HFY, and has trained with them in the past. He mainly trains at my kwoon though under my sifu. He has a wrestling and jujitsu background I think. He will shoot take me down to the ground and we will roll when sparring. He is extremely aggressive so I get a great cardio work out sparring him.

    So, you can use wing chun foot work but when your opponet wants to play around in your kill zone (arm to leg distance) bobbing around and weaving you gotta pick up your feet to crowd his space. I also think its natural human reaction to back off and not want to get too close on the account of they think its easier to counter or dodge at a distance. Makes sense you have more time to see the attack coming. So crowding the space definately puts you at risk.

    However, maybe its not who faster, its who gets there first. Which with proper centerlien theroy I think it could help out the average MMA guy. Perhaps its just a matter of taking the risk for the reward, which is something some trainers don't like the idea of.
    http://www.wingchunusa.com

    Sao gerk seung siu, mo jit jiu - Hands and feet defend accordingly, there are no secret or unstoppable maneuvers.
    -Yip Man

  9. #54
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    The principle of the chain attack is used all the time in the ring. It called the "1-2", or jab-jab-cross, or "hit him until he goes down"

    Now, using the same attack over and over and alternating hands in a completely simple and predictable fashion just doesn't seem logical, unless the opponent is at your complete mercy. When I trained wc, I always thought that the chain punch was a principle and that "roll punches" was an exercise to improve punching speed. Closer to how you would actually apply it was the "three arrow" punching drill which is high-high-middle-low-low-middle-high-high etc. Roll punches can be effective but in spurts of 2 or in rare cases 3. Beyond that you have turned your brain off and just flailing.

    JMO

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun
    "...my Sifu is not just a WC Sifu, but also an instructor in 3 other methods of fighting as well as a scholar in regards to Martial Arts in general. If you ever get the chance to see his library and video collections you will realize that for yourself. Just like Bruce Lee did, he has investigated many different ways to do Martial Arts..." (James Roller)


    MORE OF THE SAME...listen James, you've really got to start having second thoughts before doing any more posts like this one.

    How could you possibly know how many videos, books, articles, etc. I have in MY COLLECTION ???

    Or the collections of many other people around here?

    Or how many decades, years, months, weeks, days, hours...I have spent (and continue to spend) investigating martial arts?

    How many boxing matches I've seen...UFC and PRIDE fights...how much actual sparring/rolling I've done ?

    How many actual streetfights I've had in my life?

    And again - the same with so many other people.

    You ARE living in a fantasy world, as Terence put it...because you think that "your sifu" is beyond everybody else - and because you think that "your" analysis of his methods is sooooooo accurate....

    WITHOUT GOING OUT AND TESTING YOUR THEORIES...in a real situation (ie. - sparring/fighting all out against a skilled opponent using methods that you and your instructor DON'T endorse).

    So much self-delusion going on here...but my goal now - where you're concerned - is to try and undo your hijacking when the threads involved interest me...

    because trying to convince you by logical argument (or trying to get you to put your theories to the test)...isn't working.
    Jeez for a guy with so much knowledge and experience, hard to tell sometimes by your vid's....Please Victor, quit trying to lecture me and make me think I'm looking like a idiot or something. It's all about source of information, and my reference to Sifu's credibility is just that, he's a source of information, not all knowing because no one is, but a very accurate and large source of information, and quality information at that. You use GM Cheung all the time, and it's fair to say he has nothing on my Instructor when it comes to actual real knowledge in regards to streetfights and kung fu knowledge. Also Did Cheung learn the system in 7 months? Nope. My instructor did, and why you have a problem with that is obvious, jealousy, because no one can do that if you can't right or Cheung, lol. Like the two of you are the one and only's. So IMO it would be a good idea to learn from someone with high quality skills. Face it Victor, I can say whatever about whoever and prove it, and you still wouldn't believe me just because of your personal feelings toward me and my Sifu, plain and simple. Luckily for me I give a rat's a$$ about what you think and your opinions on what WC needs.

    James

  11. #56
    "You use GM Cheung all the time, and it's fair to say he has nothing on my Instructor when it comes to actual real knowledge in regards to streetfights and kung fu knowledge. Also Did Cheung learn the system in 7 months? Nope. My instructor did..." (James Roller)


    YOU'RE OUT OF YOUR FRIGGIN' MIND, james....

    Which is going to be all I'll say for now - as it's always OUTRAGEOUS NONSENSE statements like this that allow you to hijack thread after thread and turn attention to YOURSELF...even if it means that you become the subject of ridicule - which it almost always does.

    But I'm not going to take the bait this time....and will now act to bring the thread back to the interesting and informative course it was on; that is, for people who understand that Wing Chun is about fighting - and not about playacting and then backing away when their number is called.
    Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 03-25-2005 at 05:33 AM.

  12. #57
    [QUOTE=fa_jing]The principle of the chain attack is used all the time in the ring. It called the "1-2", or jab-jab-cross, or "hit him until he goes down"

    "Now, using the same attack over and over and alternating hands in a completely simple and predictable fashion just doesn't seem logical, unless the opponent is at your complete mercy. When I trained wc, I always thought that the chain punch was a principle and that "roll punches" was an exercise to improve punching speed. Closer to how you would actually apply it was the "three arrow" punching drill which is high-high-middle-low-low-middle-high-high etc. Roll punches can be effective but in spurts of 2 or in rare cases 3. Beyond that you have turned your brain off and just flailing."


    YOUR SECOND PARAGRAGH does make sense, fa jing, but your opening statement to the point that the jab-jab-cross is the equivalent to the wing chun chain punch is simply not true. The principle behind the chain punch attack - when understood - is to use this approach when a very close inside position has been attained and the opening is there for the first punch to land (without being hit back by your opponent) - and now a second and possibly a third punch is possible.

    The jab...followed by a rear cross...is a whole different animal. The jab is used by boxers to create an opening for the cross...or perhaps a hook off the lead jab, etc. - along with an elusive footwork - but all of it is initiated AT A LONGER RANGE - and usually at different angles (lines) than the wing chun chain punch attack.

    What I advocate is the use of the jab (and some corresponding footwork) as one way to get close enough to square up and start working the wing chun inside game.

    As for the cross, or hooks, uppercuts, etc. - they are good tools to have at certain ranges (the rear cross) and angles (hooks and uppercuts) that aren't really part of the wing chun game also.
    Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 03-25-2005 at 06:28 AM.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by sihing
    Jeez for a guy with so much knowledge and experience, hard to tell sometimes by your vid's
    James,
    You should look in mirror when you make a statement like this. I don't want to get involved in a dispute between you and Victor, but when I read this line I just couldn't help myself. My bad.
    'Talk is cheap because there is an excess of supply over demand'

  14. #59
    BTW...speaking of Vitor Belfort and the rest of the MMA guys...

    there's going to be a PRIDE tournament coming up in Japan (not sure if it starts in May or June) wherein some of the very best will be competing in their weight class (185-205 lbs.)...

    Randy Couture
    Wanderlai Silva
    Chuck Liddell
    Vitor Belfort
    Tito Ortiz
    Kazushi Sakuraba

    ...and some others.

  15. #60
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    I have a lot of tapes/DVDs of most of the UFC fights. One (I think it was UFC 2 or UFC 3) a Wing Chung fighter fought. This was back in the early 90's when the rules were no biting, eye gouging, or fish hooking. That was it, anything else wnet. This was also when you would fight 3 times in one night against any size guy.

    In the fight the Wing Chung martial artist was a black sash and had many years under his belt. The fight started, he went out in is wing chung stance. His opponent, kicked him in the guy, then rushed forward and took the Wing Chung guy to the ground. The Wing Chung guy lasted 5 seconds on the ground, getting pounded like there was no tomorrow, until his corner threw in the towel.

    It was a good fight. I'm not saying WC is no good, it's just fighters need to cross train and fight many different opponents from different styles. This will help you figure out what works and what doesn't. It also helps you apply theories against non -willing opponents. This is what a lot of MMA guys do. I have sparred and fought with smoe MMA guys (still do) and they are not as wild as they look. Most of them are very good and strong. Additionally, most of them don't have the egos you see in a lot of traditional MA schools and are really cool to hang out with.

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