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Thread: so I watched a UFC fight last night...

  1. #61
    Nice input, 007.

    And speaking of NHB, MMA fighters...I think Fedor is the best.

    From Russia with Love.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesbond_007
    I have a lot of tapes/DVDs of most of the UFC fights. One (I think it was UFC 2 or UFC 3) a Wing Chung fighter fought. This was back in the early 90's when the rules were no biting, eye gouging, or fish hooking. That was it, anything else wnet. This was also when you would fight 3 times in one night against any size guy.

    In the fight the Wing Chung martial artist was a black sash and had many years under his belt. The fight started, he went out in is wing chung stance. His opponent, kicked him in the guy, then rushed forward and took the Wing Chung guy to the ground. The Wing Chung guy lasted 5 seconds on the ground, getting pounded like there was no tomorrow, until his corner threw in the towel.

    It was a good fight. I'm not saying WC is no good, it's just fighters need to cross train and fight many different opponents from different styles. This will help you figure out what works and what doesn't. It also helps you apply theories against non -willing opponents. This is what a lot of MMA guys do. I have sparred and fought with smoe MMA guys (still do) and they are not as wild as they look. Most of them are very good and strong. Additionally, most of them don't have the egos you see in a lot of traditional MA schools and are really cool to hang out with.

    I saw that fight it was short, and the wing chun guy looked out of shape if you ask me, but it was kinda hard to tell with his black uniform on.
    http://www.wingchunusa.com

    Sao gerk seung siu, mo jit jiu - Hands and feet defend accordingly, there are no secret or unstoppable maneuvers.
    -Yip Man

  3. #63
    "In the fight the Wing Chung martial artist was a black sash and had many years under his belt. The fight started, he went out in is wing chung stance. His opponent, kicked him in the guy, then rushed forward and took the Wing Chung guy to the ground. The Wing Chung guy lasted 5 seconds on the ground, getting pounded like there was no tomorrow, until his corner threw in the towel." -- 007

    In my opinion, even worse than the fight itself is that the Wing Chun guy (Steve Faulkner?) was labeled by one of the fight announcers as, "The best Wing Chun fighter in the world today" (and I'm quoting!). So when a fan of mixed martial arts (or anyone, for that matter!) hears that label, and watches that "Best Wing Chun fighter" get taken down and beaten in the space of 44 seconds, I can understand completely why they would think all Wing Chun is lousy!

  4. #64

    Red face

    I think we should find out who that ring announcer was and chain punch him.

  5. #65
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    Good point about the differences between the jab-jab-cross and the wc chain punch, Victor. I was thinking more about the chain attack principle which I've heard referenced in multiple CMA's, and also thinking about those wc/vt/wt guys who actually try to use chain punches to enter... something I was never taught in the 3 years I studied wing chun, FWIW.

    Seems to me that if you recognize the correct usage of the chain punch as Victor described, and limit yourself to that situation in using it, it would be effective. I would add that achieving that kind of control over a closely-matched opponent, who stays in motion, will occur infrequently.

  6. #66
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    Yeah you will see people trying to chain punch for entry techniques. You will see chi sao demos where they are just executing a bunch of techs in each others kill zones.
    Its trained that way, b/c it can work that way. So, I see why people want to stay in striking distance.

    However, whenever I chi sao or spar, or fut sao, or whatever I can always hear sifu in the background saying, go in, go in! We train to first establish position, to be really close to our opponet in sticking range. You can get there by foot work, entry technique, counter-technique whatever. Once in that real close range you can chain punch your opponet. You strike and the other fist is chambered for the next strike. The hands change positions simultaneously.

    In MMA matches there is lots of bobbing, weaving, moving around, etc. They always play in each other's kill zones. I know its much easier to say than do, but I think its maybe why wing chun isn't looked for ring fighting.

    Are we not most effective when we are right next to our opponet?

    Wing chun has advantages in trapping range, correct?

    However, what happens when traping range becomes clinch, or even grappling range?

    Wing chuners should love it when our opponets come into us like that. However, I think some dogmatic thinking maybe hinders some wing chun practitioners into thinking that it cannot be used. So, some of them conform to their opponet and will also start bobbing and weaving, and then in return you are playing their game and not making your opponet play yours.

    Like I mentioned earlier. There is a MMA guy who trains at the same kwoon I do. he is tough, strong and aggressive. Likes to take you to the ground, likes to clinch, and likes to prance around the ring like a boxer. Against someone who is skilled, yes its hard to be effective. If it were easy everyone would be a pro fighter.

    So things I think that need to be trained outside dogmatic thinking for a wing chun guy to be really good in the ring are:

    1) Foot work - must be able to go from standing still to up on feet and moving around fast (should practice all ranges of foot work).

    2) Train how to handle trapping range from clinch to grapple. How to crowd the space and control the space and maintain once you controlled.

    3) train grappling, just train it. Do bjj rolling, get a feel for the basics of grappling. Practice shrimping, triangling, alligator crwals, etc. Those things will give you good grappling attributes.

    4) Go in, crowd the space. Get out of the kill zone. Get in there and do what wing chun is suppose to do best.

    These are just my opinions from watching some fights lately. None of them seem to follow wing chun principles or concepts. However, I agree that the wing chun concept should be adaptable and flexible to all situations. Perhaps thats why some of the best ring fighters in the world don't train wing chun, who knows

    I think that it could be used though, if the proper fighter were to train some of this stuff. The hard part would be finding someone who is both conditioned and skilled enough to be a ring fighter and doesn't have lots of other training that would be counter-productive to wing chun training.
    http://www.wingchunusa.com

    Sao gerk seung siu, mo jit jiu - Hands and feet defend accordingly, there are no secret or unstoppable maneuvers.
    -Yip Man

  7. #67
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    However, what happens when traping range becomes clinch, or even grappling range?
    Trapping range and clinch range are IMO the same. If you can touch the guy's elbow, you can arm drag him. If you can touch his wrist, you can grab it and duckunder. Adding strikes is optional.

    The distinction between clinch and grappling range is pretty vague too. Most seem to regard clinch as standing grappling.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
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  8. #68
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    Vitor Belfort and Tito Ortiz are set to fight in UFC 51. They must be slumming, as we all know the UFC is inferior to this "Contenders" thing.

    Should be interesting for us!

    Vitor with his WC-stolen tactics, discussed earlier, , vs Tito who one of James' students accosted at a party and got to admit that he'd "never fought any real fighters, like Wing Chun guys" - I paraphrase and exaggerate, but only slightly.

    The Wing Chun world awaits the outcome with bated breath, <sarcasm> as this will be an obvious true test of WC principles in the ultimate arena, and prove once and for all WC's rightful place as the best system in the universe.</sarcasm>
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
    "Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander

    WC Academy BJJ/MMA Academy Surviving Violent Crime TCM Info
    Don't like my posts? Challenge me!

  9. #69

    wing chun

    From listening to some of you guys talk about UFC and full contact fighting I can tell you have never really sparred or full contact fought, I belive wing chun is an ok art and I belive that if it was so good of an art these fighters would have added wing chun to their fighting skills they are not dummies and there is alot of money to be made. from what I can see Wing chun lacks training for resistant oppenants.
    Also Wing Chun can become a solid art by full contact fighting if they would full contact fight to weed out useless techniques and strengthing the art. Alot of you guys try to analize fighting with science looks good on paper but not so good in a fight, if you want to be effective fighter start using drills in a full contact situation it will help you become a much better fighter . Also there are many styles that have open challenges from other style and they do this to learn what will work and what wont and by doing this they grow as fighters. Also I hear Wing Chun is to dangerous for the ring come on fellas that is a sad excuse most styles are dangerous, another thing I hear is some traing for health thats good, or they say these people have families all of the fighters in the contender have families most of the UFC guys have families what does that have to do with sparring? also the reason why Wing Chun does so poorly in tournaments is that they do not train realistically not all schools but most if you put the gloves on and fought on a regular basis you could be good in the ring. I am not trying to put Wing Chun down just saying it is time to stop making excuses for the art and start traing for real drills and chi sau will not get it in a real fight only a fight will prepare you for the real deal. Good luck in your training.

  10. #70
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    Firstly Crusher welcome to the forum. Second, who’s making excuses? Yes to be a complete fighter you have to use your skills full contact, this is agreed I believe by most all on here. Forms and Chi-sao are part of the whole, not all that WC has to offer. When we spar in class it is not WC vs. WC, it is whatever vs. WC and against multiple opponents. In the competitions we have entered (not many) we have been very successful. When I myself entered point tournaments (long ago and it was the only venue available) I found it to be a big joke. You could have stood there and let them hit you full on and nothing would have happened, because they had no power behind their techniques, and in the end it reminded me of a game of tag. But essentially IMO Wing Chun is not meant for sport or competitions, unless the competitions are lethal and hurtful in nature with no rules. Like I have said before both competitions and/or a need to prove something to others is a form of Ego gratification, and when one is truly trained in the Martial Arts there is little to no Ego to be found in them, or at least that is the goal.

    James

  11. #71
    Firstly Crusher welcome to the forum. Second, many people are making excuses !

    Starting with the poster who immediately preceded this post.

    Your remarks and suggestions are well founded and make sense. What style(s) do you do, and for how long?

  12. #72

    ultimatewingchun

    Its good to see some guys do not have blinders on when it comes to fighting or are hidden behind excuses, you asked what styles and how long I have been involved with Martial arts off and on for twenty years. I have studied BJJ, Tae Kwon Do full contact, Tang soo do Full contact , Boxing, Wing Chun and the Russian system. I have found over the years that many people not just Wing Chun Guys make excuses about full contact fighting it's not for everybody, but most say oh I am in it for the art or health ect... ect.... some are truthful but most are scared
    I believe if you are scared to fight with gloves on than you better pray you never get into a real fight with no rules bare knuckle. Many Wing Chun guys have a false sence of reality and really believe they could handle their selves in a fight. I f you ever felt a adrenaline rush by a stranger walking up to you asking you what time it is and grabbing you slammining you to the concrete while you think this can't be happening to me it has to be reflex not a thought process. It does help you become a better martial artis to train realistically a good hit in the face with gloves will help you understand your system and reaction time. Train hard fellas oh I do have a family and do work 50 hours a week also.

  13. #73
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    andrew, the "UFC" and "Contender" are both "reality" shows. The contestants live in a house together with no books, magazine, tv etc. Though they did get alcohol at first. In both cases the winners will get some kind of promotion, in the case to the UFC show they will fight in the real deal. I was just commenting that the boxers looked significantly more formidable than the MMA guys, with some notable exceptions.

  14. #74
    "If you ever felt a adrenaline rush by a stranger walking up to you asking you what time it is and grabbing you slammining you to the concrete while you think this can't be happening to me it has to be reflex not a thought process. It does help you become a better martial artist to train realistically a good hit in the face with gloves will help you understand your system and reaction time." (Crusher)

    WELL SAID. Pain is a great teacher.

  15. #75
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    "You use GM Cheung all the time, and it's fair to say he has nothing on my Instructor when it comes to actual real knowledge in regards to streetfights and kung fu knowledge. Also Did Cheung learn the system in 7 months? Nope. My instructor did..." (James Roller)

    Come on James? Your Sifu said once that he learned the whole
    system in 10 months. Which one is it? You're saying that your sifu has had more street fights and knows more about kung fu than his teacher. Based on what facts? There have been many circumstances in Cheung Sifu's career where in he past he's had to be careful of how TWC info was disseminated. Cheung Sifu is now teaching things that he didn;t in the old day. Sifu's older now and is more open. He doesn't feel the need to protect his rice bowl anymore. There are things about TWC that your sifu never learned. How do I know? Because Sifu has shown some of us the differences in what he taught and what he learned from Yip Man. I have seen the video of your Sifu at the Colorado seminar. He looked OK. Nothing to write home about. I normally woudn't write anything like this about someome's sifu but you said that your sifu had nothing on Cheung Sifu. I really have to laugh at that statement. I can understand you respecting your sifu, but you're way off track here. In fact you're even downright disrespecful of your Si Gung. Also, Cheung Sifu disputes the fact that Brian Lewandy learned the WHOLE TWC system. Period
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