Liu He Praying Mantis

[shirkers1]

Hey chad, yes if I can...

I tried to send you a pm earlier but your box is full.

mark

[Shadowboxer]

I'll check my box.

[Shadowboxer]

Box is clear.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

YZDZ I'm from Wong Hon Fun lineage, HK 7*.... The master Hu seminar was held at my teachers school in akron this past weekend. I can tell you first hand that what you see performed in the forms is something completely different than applied fighting tactics. Master Hu did a great job at showing the difference between the two. The fighting applications were close in the way we think although we apply them with different body energy. So we could see what master hu was getting at... With that said a lot of the HK 7 * sets what you are seeing is pretty straight forward and the average person can pick up on at least one of the apps. But the liu sets it's pretty hidden if you don't train in that style... and it seems like a lot of the individual movements have multiple apps from the feet to the arms. So if you want to pick it up from the vid get on it chief.. but sorry about your luck if you think you're going to even scrape the surface of what is actually there.

I agree with jake and I think you have no clue what liuhe is, but if you keep it up I have a feeling you will find out soon enough. By the way different styles have different ways of power generation.... Ours comes from our footwork, through the whole body. Hey jake let me know when this cat comes to work out with you, I'd like to drive out and partake in the viewing!

I know jake would love to have you come work out, learn, whatever with him. He's a great guy and can get his point across in more than one way so you won't be wasting your time. But I tell you what, you won't be wasting your time or money if you attend a master hu seminar period..... "who's master hu"? is the question we were asking ourselves before the seminar "we found master hu"..... is what we were saying after, and he IS the real deal..


PAUL E From what I saw at the seminar, master hu loves open hand strikes so I would say hell yes iron palm would make a big difference.

the vids i have show some slight power generation from that kind of movement. does it seem to you to be like digging the balls of your feet into the ground as you leverage into your opponent especially with initially strange seeming vectors? 'cause that's what my vids look like. some people call this good grounding technique. other styles use this grounding combined with good stancework to generate massive hip centered power for hand and foot techniques. even with extra penetration comming from better positioning of the feet or even changing the foot holds as you move.

i'm not saying its not a good style compared to a lot of what's out there.

the hop gar i've seen does this technique for power generation, too. just my experience. but i guess if all you knew based on what you saw was what you could see -regaurdless of what else you knew- as an intermediate student would your view be any different? what if you looked at it with what you know about other arts or even other styles of similar arts?
is Hu sifu the one who has produced all the vids for this style? my vids are from china and in chinese.

please don't take this next comment personal but less emotionally controlled people will probably take offense to it: i used to think that all the ego blazed martial arts came from wah lum or derived mantis arts, but i'm starting to see a lot of it in other northern arts too. for y'all to assume that someone cannot possibly know how you generate power from looking at someone do it (and possibly commenting from different vid sources) i really don't see how you can say that someone can't learn your style from a video. i mean you saw someone do it at a demonstration and learned it merely from watching in that format. is it just your marketing platform? are you from a shepardising religious background that suggests the only real learning can occur from a sheppard-sheep relationship? what is it specifically that makes you as sifu so positive that a person can't see what you are talking about without the same experiential learning?

perhaps i'm just unique in the way i look at arts as they are being performed....-?-

instead of seeing only what's being presented i automatically include things that would make it better from my previous experience?

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

furthermore:

the sifu whom made my vids is: Zhang Dao Jing, 7th generation sifu, VP of Yen Tai WuShu Assoc. Student of Zhang Xiansan. Student of Ding Zicheng. Student of Lin Shi Chun.

there are 6 mantis routines; 1 liu he mantis Duan Chui; a tan tui like routine called tuan chui; plus some 7star mantis forms done in the 6 harmaony style; the seven core routines are: Jie Shou Chuan; Tie Ci; XianShou Ben; Shuang Feng; Tuan CHui; Zhao Mein Deng; Tsang Hua.

[Lu Bu]

YuanZhideDiZhen-

" i really don't see how you can say that someone can't learn your style from a video."

Forms are one thing. Depending on the complexity of the information being presented, if you are a reasonably intelligent, talented, and/or experienced person, you could probably pick up the forms of a given style. However, take this from one of the people being thrown around that weekend: you would NOT learn this style from watching forms. Why? Not because of a lack of ability/intellect/whatever, but because there is far, far more to a complete style of martial arts than just learning forms. And, as far as Liuhe Tanglang goes, if you could figure out ALL the applications that were being shown out of the first four or so moves of the form, you should be given some kind of medal, or something. It's not a style you could say, "Oh you do this this and this because the guy doing the form is doing that", there is much more to it all. Applications are (more times than you might think) often hidden in gongfu. Just because it may seem obvious doesn't mean it is.

As for the power generation, personally, I have only seen Hu Laoshi and one other person (from a vcd) move using Liuhe, and from that I don't think it looks like any of the Hop Gar I have seen. Hu Laoshi discussed the power primarily used in Liuhe, and he explained that it came primarily from the waist as it seems to in most styles of Chinese Martial Arts. However the Hop Gar you've seen and the Liuhe you've seen can be different from what I have seen. I certainly haven't seen it all (or probably even 10% of it all, there's really a lot of stuff out there). No big deal.

[Laviathan]

please don't take this next comment personal but less emotionally controlled people will probably take offense to it: i used to think that all the ego blazed martial arts came from wah lum or derived mantis arts, but i'm starting to see a lot of it in other northern arts too. for y'all to assume that someone cannot possibly know how you generate power from looking at someone do it (and possibly commenting from different vid sources) i really don't see how you can say that someone can't learn your style from a video. i mean you saw someone do it at a demonstration and learned it merely from watching in that format. is it just your marketing platform? are you from a shepardising religious background that suggests the only real learning can occur from a sheppard-sheep relationship? what is it specifically that makes you as sifu so positive that a person can't see what you are talking about without the same experiential learning?

perhaps i'm just unique in the way i look at arts as they are being performed....-?-

instead of seeing only what's being presented i automatically include things that would make it better from my previous experience?

I can't believe I'm actually responding to this post, but oh well, here it goes...

Firstly, no one says you can't learn a form from a vcd. Sure you can. If you're really good and experienced, you can also figure out how the power generation works IN THE FORM. If you're extremely talented you can also figure out all the fighting applications FROM THE FORM.

But does this mean you have actually learnt true Liuhe Mantis? Definitely NO.

But the fact is: you have not touch hands with a real teacher of the style, you haven't experienced/felt the flow, the power and the spirit which are applied in real-life training.

Secondly, you obviously feel that you are already at a level in the martial arts in which you merely have to watch vcd's in order to add moves to your arsenal of techniques. But hey, if you're really that good already, why do you need to "steal" techniques from others? If you're able to understand, acquire and apply these different types of powers, than it means that you are already formless. But obviously, you are not formless, 'cause you do watch and learn forms from VCD's... If you're so superior in the field of the martial arts, why do you even bother to learn all those "useless" forms?

Thirdly, OK let's assume you are REALLY that good. I'm sure everyone of us here on the Kungfu Magazine Forum would love to learn from you. Why don't you put some vids of your own up, to show your skills? Please enlighten us poor indoctrinated mortals.

Please note that I'm not saying that you are not unique. Of course you are. I am just a little bit skeptical about you being unique enough to master Liuhe Tanglang on your own with just a DVD-player as Sifu, that's all...

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

But hey, if you're really that good already, why do you need to "steal" techniques from others?
...

basically, most of your post revolves around this question.

simple: i saw some techniques that i thought were useful that i had not encountered previously. as stated a page ago.

i do not ascribe to any spiritual mumbo jumbo as applied to the fighting arts. fighting arts are anything but spiritual and philosophically enlightening. if you think they are i don't want you any where near people that would be my prospective students. if you end up as one of mine don't let me know about your attachments to form and unreality.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

with regaurds to the 'enlightened post' made by leviatan:

i certainly do not claim to know the system. however, i do claim to be able to understand and follow the conversation based on what i've been able to observe and what occurs in my own practice.

i do not come from a korean or japanese martial history and have a fair understanding of cma at large and power generation techniques. i studied three styles of medium length power (of which mei hua mantis is one) and two of long methods.

generally i enjoy discussing elements about your style with three harmonies because he generally is nonconfrontational in his appraoch to informing: a characteristic that is rare amongst mantis stylists. and one which i greatly appreciate in him.

from what i've been able to piece together about traditional stylists and sifu on this site is that there are only about six whom i would call traditional in thier thinking, training, outlook and perspective: and it shows. i'm not going to identify them 'cause i don't want to draw anymore attention to them than they already do themselves.

[Laviathan]

basically, most of your post revolves around this question.

No, my post consists of the following questions:

1. If you're really that good already, why do you need to "steal" techniques from others?

2. If you're so superior in the field of the martial arts, why do you even bother to learn all those "useless" forms?

3. Why don't you put some vids of your own up, to show your skills?

simple: i saw some techniques that i thought were useful that i had not encountered previously. as stated a page ago.

Yeah sure...

i do not ascribe to any spiritual mumbo jumbo as applied to the fighting arts. fighting arts are anything but spiritual and philosophically enlightening. if you think they are i don't want you any where near people that would be my prospective students. if you end up as one of mine don't let me know about your attachments to form and unreality.

Who is talking about "spiritual" and "philosophical" matters? What the heck are you talking about?

And where the hell did you get the idea that I would want to learn from you?

Anyway, I am sure you are extremely good in what you do, I am sure you are a high-level martial artist. I am just a very ignorant, low-level kid. So, keep up the good work. I'm outta here...

[Lu Bu]

YuanZhideDiZhen-

Geez, man. Just because you don't agree with or possibly understand something doesn't mean you have to trash it.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

YuanZhideDiZhen-

Geez, man. Just because you don't agree with or possibly understand something doesn't mean you have to trash it.

dude, you have completely missed what i said. i'm sorry that i assumed i could have an intelligent discussion with the two of you...

[Laviathan]

dude, you have completely missed what i said. i'm sorry that i assumed i could have an intelligent discussion with the two of you...

Oh really? No kiddin'... You know what? The discussion might have actually been an intelligent one if it wasn't for you behaving like a pompous ass all the time.

People here only commented on how they are skeptical about you learning Liuhe Tanglang from vcd's, no one was being unpleasant about it, we were just trying to have an intelligent conversation.

Yet you started ranting about "less emotionally controlled people will probably take offense to it: i used to think that all the ego blazed martial arts came from wah lum or derived mantis arts, but i'm starting to see a lot of it in other northern arts too... is it just your marketing platform? are you from a shepardising religious background that suggests the only real learning can occur from a sheppard-sheep relationship?"

I then tried to engage in normal conversation with you by asking you how you can train a style without actually experiencing/feeling the flow, the power and the SPIRIT (I did not mean SPIRITUAL, just fighting spirit) in real life teacher-student tutoring. I also asked you to "enlighten us poor indoctrinated mortals". I was obviously being sarcastic, but apparently you missed the wole point. Instead, you again went on ranting about something completely different:

i do not ascribe to any spiritual mumbo jumbo as applied to the fighting arts. fighting arts are anything but spiritual and philosophically enlightening. if you think they are i don't want you any where near people that would be my prospective students. if you end up as one of mine don't let me know about your attachments to form and unreality.

Which is followed by another rant. I am not even going there.

Your whole point is: you feel most mantis stylists in general or on the forum are arrogant. You feel you understand what they do, but they don't believe you, and you got a problem with that. You've got issues, and it really shows in your posts.

The only thing I would like to say is: get over it. Most of the forum members are sincere in sharing their knowledge, learning from each other and to engage in intelligent discussion. You give your views, and if you feel that some people are too narrowminded to understand your views, then that's their problem. I'd suggest you to leave these issues aside and just enjoy talking about Mantis Kungfu.

But hey, maybe I am completely off. And really, I am not interested in continueing this conversation, and obviously you feel I am too dumb to comprehend your ideas. Sorry if you feel that way. Bye.

[Laviathan]

Never mind, I read some "testimonials" about you here:How we feel about YuanZhideDiZhen

[BeiTangLang]

LOL! I see. He came here to spread b/s because evrywhere else already called him on it. The games up here too. I seriously hope that you _do not_ have students!

Anyway, back to the LH discussion (if there is any of it left). No Mas on troll-boy.