Tao

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi SevenStar,

Please take your criticisms of my view and apply them to your own. Think carefully about the criticisms you have made and turn them towards yourself and see how you are doing EXACTLY what you have accused me of.

I have defined what Taoism means to me and I grant that your view is just as valid for you, from your perspective, as mine is to me.

We do not define Tao. We perceive it and attempt to share those perceptions with others. Tao cannot be defined, it can only be perceived and its manifestations experienced. Words and descriptions are not the thing; they are mere shadows that point to it.

You use a formal path with inherent weaknesses and restrictions this is a Truth that applies to all structures and this is a Truth whether you perceive it or not. If you studied the Tao with enough depth for enough years you would recognize this as truth as well. My view includes and understands your view and that is why it is not elitist, your view excludes everyone but those who agree with you, that is why it is elitist. I perceive the inherent value and weaknesses of your perspective; you are unable to appreciate the uniqueness and value of mine or others such as TaiChiBob whom I know to be a well educated, articulate, knowledgeable, sincere and patient man. This is what defines you as an elitist, you are exclusive in your view, people like TaiChiBob and me may disagree with your views but we try not to be exclusive in our view. This is because we understand the inherent flaws all men possess regarding their personal perceptions and we apply this knowledge to ourselves as well. I may disagree with your view, but I will respect it non-the-less.

You are the one who has taken it upon yourself to denigrate those you do not consider true Taoists according you’re own definition or perhaps the definition of the sect or school or method you follow. You are the one who has excluded the views of others, not I. I merely stated what I disagree with and what my experience and direct perceptions have indicated to me are common errors of fixed methods. I have also stated that these fixed methods with all their inherent limitations are not apart from Tao. Lastly, I have shared the knowledge I have gained about Tao through years of study. That is direct experience, not book learning!!! Direct experience means, when I look at the sky and see it is blue I make the statement, “The sky is BLUE!” When others argue the sky is not blue, I attempt to direct their vision to the sky in order to perceive directly the truth of my statement. I am not foolish enough to believe anyone would nor do I think they should take my word for it! Taking my word for it is not direct knowledge, direct perception of the fact or truth of it is!! You cannot argue the sky is not blue and yet refuse to look for yourself, but this is the path you have chosen. You presume to instruct others in your ignorance. From this all you accomplish is greater ignorance, nothing more!!

It is unfortunate your narrow views are not allowing you to take the ideas of those writing here and expand your perceptions and experience. Tao is not limited; it is the personal views of men that apply limitations to Tao. Just so you are aware, I acknowledge there are inherent limitations and errors of my perspective as well. We are all limited by our own unrealized blinders so to speak. The wise man constantly seeks to identify his blinders and remove them, knowing that as long as we take a fixed view we are cultivating stagnation, not growth. I endeavor to constantly examine my conclusions in an effort to expand my experience, knowledge and perceptions. This is not the attitude of an elitist. Can you make the same claim for yourself? From what I have seen it appears not!!

You will note I have made no claims regarding the cultivation practices of which you speak. I don’t know how you have perceived that I have done so. I know cultivation practices to be tools that may be of benefit to some, but I also know they are not necessary to realization of Tao. Further, tools have their own limitations and will at some point be a hindrance to growth and understanding. Until you recognize this you will be stunted in your growth and it appears this has already occurred. Tools have specific purposes, a hammer hammers nails, a screw driver drives screws, when the nail is hammered and the screw set I may discard the tools necessary for the task and utilize other tools designed for other tasks. Religious structures tend to get lost in the minutia of their tools (rituals) and make the tool more important than the lesson they were designed to teach. These are inherent weaknesses of all systems and structures and your blind adherence to them hurts not only yourself but those you teach.

I agree your posts are not much help to anyone searching for a true Taoist. Your definition is not mine, and mine is not yours. You lead the way to narrow elitism, I attempt to challenge the fixed perspectives of others in an effort to goad, guide, lead or stimulate those who seek to grow constantly and not get bogged down in fixed stagnant systems of thought.

Good luck to you and if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the fire!!! Truth can stand the crucible of criticism, can you? So far it appears not!! If Truth could not stand up to criticism it wouldn’t be called the Truth!!

Since you believe so strongly in your views please share them with us all and stand up to the criticism with rational learned discussion and argument, that is reasonable discourse providing proofs and examples of their truth. If you make a statement I agree with I will say so, if I disagree I will also say so, so will many others. But if your knowledge is weak maybe it is better you do not participate. Maybe your limited views will remain safer hidden from public scrutiny. Maybe you should stay hidden in your tower with your special elite knowledge us mere mortals are not worthy of possessing.

[7 star Method]

LOL

May your heart find peace.

Tao-an

[Chuck Man Chuck]

Some real good posts here. But, FYI...

Taoist/Daoist is a Western word, and basically can mean "anybody" or "thought" associated with the Dao or Daoism. The correct Romanization for a Daoist priest is "Daoshi".

Further, it seems were leading into the age old debate between Philosophical Daoism vs. Religious Daoism. LOL. These two categories, also have Romanizations and respective Chinese charters, and have had accepted schools in China associated with them, such as the "Pure Conversationalist" vs. the "Celestial Masters".

Have fun,

C.

[7 star Method]

Chuck,

Thank you for your post.
I agree, Taoist is a western term, but modern academia have all agreed that Taoshi is a Taoist and Jushi is a Taoist apprentice.

I personally would like all people who are interested and practice Taoism to be able to consider themselves Taoist. It is a western term and it should be able to represent the layman with this title. The problem is lies with the present day scholars and the present Taoists in China define this title this way. Taoism has always been a non unified religion that has always taken great hits during cultural revolutions and misguided academia of the past. During the late 19th century, western academia discovered Taoism. Unfortunately it assumed the prejudices of the early missionaries and translators from China and abroad. To this day Beijing has only two main temples and over a dozen Christian churches, why, because religions like Buddhism, Christianity and Moslem are all world wide with much support and the Chinese government cannot touch them without getting bashed. Taoism is a Chinese religion without world recognition and unity. Therefore the only true supporters of Taoism outside of China are usually from the areas of S.E. Asia that have absolutely no power or say when it comes to the Chinese government.
However, modern academia have finally began the to learn the truth of Taoism, awakening the whole organic Taoist tradition. These scholars include: Livia Koln, Michael Sasso, James Miller, Russel Kirkland, Issabelle Robinet, Kristopher Schipper etc... Not all of these scholars are Taoists, but some are. Many like to throw there two cents in and not give a direct translation, but they all agree on one thing, That Taoism is a specific religion and that there never has been a separation of religion and philosophy, but groups were established to get together and dissect the philosophies of Taoism to better understand their religion and philosophies that make it (much like bible study).

I realize Scott has the best intentions, but with those he like to throw insults wherever he can to separate his lack of confidence with his understanding of the religion of Taoism. This has no reference if he is enlightened or understand the Tao better than I, but by his comments I can hardly expect it. I simply cannot understand why someone would like to refer to themselves as a Taoist when they do not agree with the religion. A practitioner of Tai Chi and Chi Kung a few meditations labeled as Taoist that have read some poorly translated texts of the book Laozi does not make a person Taoist. This would be like a person who reads the bible but does not believe in Jesus and have never been baptized calling themselves a Christian, for me it does not make sense.

We all will see a cultural change in the religion in Taoism once it gets more established in the West. I hope that with these changes with a small ceremony (like a baptism) a person can call themselves a Taoist, but until then it is not up to people like Scott to define the term of Taoist, when the definition is already in place. We need to leave this up to the leaders of Taoism.

Scott, I completely agree with you when you agree to disagree. You seem well learned and quick witted. I can only respect you for that. But your insults are overwhelming and you should try to control yourself emotionally. BTW - You may see the sky as blue, but it is truly a spectrum of light that translates itself as blue. LOL

Tao-an

[Metal Mantis]

Hmmm, all of these things, ideals that we hold, bring further seperation... further "I know and you do not"..... Was Jesus a Christian? How about Lao Tzu, a Taoist? I feel neither of these men would have subscribed to any one way of thinking or acting and prescribing it to the masses. What may work for me may not work for you... Awareness is what study of taoism and Gung Fu has brought me.. Awareness.... We are all expressions of One.... We the Many.... Any Religion to me has already strayed from Tao... Life is an ever evolving exchanging experience of matter.... Tubes passing chemicals and such through, taking what is usefull to its direct needs and giving the left overs back to the earth... So many expressions of (God, Tao, Buddha, Ganesh, Mohamed, the Universe, Satan, Zeus, Ra....etc...) just one step away from all being the same.... Gravitate to the center.... All versions of the same model, microcosm, macrocosm all relative.... All things impact another, all is one........ Forget the Theory of Relativity, know relativity... Science and Religion... Try to rap it all up in a nice neat package and present it for your ego so we can all feel comfy and satisfied that our existance is justified and usefull.. Whatever works for you.... But to stagnate.... I understaqnd the usefullness of calming, reflecting, letting the soot (?) settle, but know that we must flow on to keep the well of life in us fresh... Darn it, did I not say before that I am unskillful with words, I would rather experience..... hehehe, Peace........

[7 star Method]

Metal Mantis,

I respect your opinion and I hope you respect mine as well. It is nice to meet someone to agree to disagree - a pleasure.
Actually Taoists believe LaoTzu to be the reincarnate of Tai Shang Lao Jun, which is one of three purities of Heaven. It is documented that Tai Shang Lau Jun came to Chang Taoling in order to transmit the truth to humans through a system that became known as Taoism.

I agree that a system can and will sometimes direct a participant further from the Tao, I have seen this many of times, mostly with the Taoists that forget to practice and continue to philosophize the Tao. It is much better to practice, but the Taoren should know what to practice for and why.

Tao-an

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi SevenStar,

I can agree to disagree as well, however you have misinterpreted my blunt straight forward manner as insults. I believe your view to be elitist; you may view that as an insult, I see it as calling a spade a spade. If you are wearing a red hat and I say, “Your hat is red”, it is not an insult due to the fact your hat is indeed red. You are an elitist, I have repeatedly demonstrated that and your comments continue to demonstrate it as well. You are exclusive in your designation of a Taoist to an unreasonable extent.

I don’t mind you calling yourself a Taoist, I take issue with you inferring that others who consider themselves Taoist are not so because they don’t meet your standards. Your standards are yours and not the final word. I am unconcerned about the traditional views of the Chinese either. Taoist thought may have Chinese influence, but the principles of Tao are not Chinese they belong to everyone. Taoist concepts are not exclusive to China. Similar concepts are found in many ancient cultures.

You seem to have assumed that I consider myself a Taoist. If I have inferred that I was careless in my writing. I consider myself a student of Tao; however I would not label myself a Taoist. I agree with some of your view. I agree that it is superficial to read a few books and take a few Chi Kung classes and then call oneself a Taoist. However, it is not my place or yours to tell someone they are not a Taoist regardless what their depth of understanding may be. This is the true arrogant attitude. These individuals are not YOUR kind of Taoist, that is all. You are engaging in the same type of bigotry that many Christians and Moslems follow. And that is, “Our way is the true way, and all those others calling themselves Christian or Moslem are the unwashed masses misled by their leaders and their simple minds” This is how you are treating those who do not follow your way. I am not criticizing your path, I am criticizing your attitude.

To be clear, my path of study has involved over 30 years of investigation, study and direct experience. I profess no doctrine. On this thread and others I have reported my direct experience of Tao. If someone were to ask me, “How do you know the sky is blue?” I would respond, “Because I looked at it and saw that it was blue.” This is commonly followed by accusations I am narrowminded and arrogant. My authority for the statements I make is my direct experience. Others have attempted to argue and do a miserable job of it, not knowing how. Not one has offered illustration or argument demonstrating the error of my views. All they are able to do is the same you have done.

Consider me arrogant if you like, to me it is like a fool arguing the sky is not blue, but refusing to look for himself. Everything I have ever stated is directly provable by each individual who wishes to discover the Truth for themselves. It takes no special ordination, authorization or permission. All it takes is effort. I am unconcerned how I am viewed by others, fire is still hot, water is wet, and the sky is blue regardless of whether anyone agrees or not. The principles of Tao apply to all whether they recognize or accept the principles or not. Most people just prefer to pontificate and argue and don’t attempt to see for themselves. As St. Paul said, “Professing to be wise, they became fools!” I offer proofs and illustrations demonstrating my points, others make empty statements offering no proofs or illustrations and think they know what they are talking about. I have not just said I disagree with you I have explained how and why I believe so. This is the mark of a reasoned, thinking individual, not a dilettante. You have offered no argument other your appeal to the tradition of your school. This is no proof or demonstration of your view, it is an empty statement.

I know what I know because I am able to directly perceive. I am able to directly perceive because I have spent many years of effort looking, thinking, contemplating and applying the principles in my everyday life. It is a knowledge born of experience. Is my perception a perfect one? No, no ones is! Not mine, not yours!!!! I do not ask, nor do I expect others to take my word for anything. If someone wants to understand my perspective I attempt to explain the unexplainable using metaphor and storied illustrations. I attempt to point the direction to look in order for others to directly perceive for themselves. This is the only way to make knowledge truly yours. Blindly following the words of others makes one a good parrot, but not an independent individual. One cannot make an honest statement concerning the taste of an orange if they have never eaten one. Having said that, it is still important for the searcher to investigate the ideas of others, by listening, reading, applying and practicing. But the proof is in the pudding! To make knowledge their own they must see how it applies in their lives through practical experience. So to those who wish to know WET, I point them to water, to those who wish to know HEAT I point them to fire. It is up to them to have the experience for themselves. All things are aspects of Tao, and all things lead to knowledge and understanding of Tao if one practices looking and applies the principles. However, if you refuse to look then no amount of argument, illustration, metaphor or explanation can do a thing for you!

[Metal Mantis]

I have always found asking questions to be helpful, mainly in the way of linguistics... How we put things in words does say a lot of our perception.... As in "perfection".... could things be any other way than they are unfolding in the Now? There is only changing.... Continual.... For things not to be "perfect" as they are then one would have to assume that there was another way... But the arrow of time that is known moves in one direction.. "perfect" gives us a since of "right and wrong" which cannot apply here, we assume past the duality of yin and yang when speaking of tao and perfection.... Words are thin ice as I have said before...
Truth? whose truth? I respect all life and the things that come from it so worry not of my disrespect for you or your thoughts... I must return to work now, thanks for the intriguing conversation....... Peace......

[PangQuan]

I have been without a life guide since my early teens. Being thrust into the world, to fend for my own, and find my own way was difficult. In the beginning I felt as though I was givin a small flame with which to view the vast expanse of darkness. At first I would use this small flame as one normally would, I lived within its light alone. I stumbled in the darkness, and made my mistakes. I was very closed to the world and life in general. Eventually I learned how to expand my range. I used experience to build my understanding. To start this was difficult as I had no real knowledge or wisdom with which I could compare and evaluate my experience with.

As I began to accumulate more and more experiences I began to notice patterns of repetition. From these patterns I was able to more accurately make decisions during the experiencing of specific life occurances. This went on for a few years, and eventually I had made a large enough connection and had built up a large enough understanding of life in general to use my now expanded light to see more of what was actually there in any given moment.

With this radius I now had I realized that I had grown significantly. I came to a point of realization that life works like this. More and more is constantly revealed, so long as you are willing and trying to expand your awareness.

I continued like this for a while longer yet, using this knowledge of life I had attained to eventually climb out of this pit that was my childhood. At long last I reached the top which I found to be the beginning and at the same time adulthood. Now I was ready and able to begin my life with my companion awareness.

I could see myself passing those that I held company with. Eventually I had to leave them behind and forge my own path. I used the tools I had developed to create a more comfortable environment and life in general. I was not over the major humps but I had spotted them, and they were accutely fixed within my crosshairs.

It was at this point in my life that I was introduced to the writings left by historical figures of the past. Primarily those who put into writing their findings of life and the unviverse in accordance with tao.

I saw these writings as shells. They had substance but were at the same time hollow. Ideals that scratch the surface of actuallity. Truths that were realized and put into literature, in hopes that others may find a glint of personal insight from the thoughts that the writings provoked. I accumulated these types of writings, found similarities between some and profound differences in some. But none-the-less I assimilated what I found to be close to my heart, and what I was able to understand, or pull understanding from.

I formed vehicles from these shells. With these vehicles I was able to compare to my actual life experiences and understandings, and often times the comparisons would lead me to more profound depths of my understanding. I did not live within these vehicles nor did I rely solely upon their existance to develop my awareness.

I had at this point been able to find my way out of the darkness on my own, I had already developed an understanding and awareness of life that many others were unable to see on their own, unaided, and without direction. This confused me at first, many of the realizations I came to seemed as though they could not be stopped, they were so blatantly obvious within the scheme of things that they simply were. But then I realized that this is not so.

One must shave away the layers of deseption and falsehood before the truth is revealed. Once I found this out it I began to question how far I had actually come, and then I realized that there is so much more for me to find.

Fast-forward a bit and we come to the present day. When I look back at the life I have lived up to this point, I truly consider myself lucky. I had been thrown into the world of men as a boy. I had persevered through many situations, and circumstances that has and again will destroy lifes. I see individuals mentally and emotionally crippled, all due to what life has dealt to many of us. Im not the best off, but at the same time Im not doing to bad for myself.

I understand aspects from many religions, yet I have not bound myself to any. Of all that I have studied I have found the way of taoist religionalists to be most applealing. I do not say now that I am able to devote myself to any religion, this simply may not be for me, but I still have been curious.

With religion it is usually easy to find one who is of a particular system or faith based belief. Christian, Muslim, Catholic, Buddhist. Of all the religions I have encountered and have met the followers and practitioners of Taosim is the only one that I have found there to be a great number of followers, yet I have not yet met a practitioner.

This would be the same as meeting one who follows the belief of One God but does not go to church, does not avidly take practice with a set of religious rules and methods. For according to actual religion, there is a right and wrong according to the religion. Now a follower is different. They follow, they do not lead.

I myself believe in a creator, but I also believe that the creator is bound by the law of Tao. This alone removes me from the conventional churches of such religions as Christianity and so forth.

Tao sheng yi, yi sheng er, er sheng san, san sheng wan wu shi.

To me the creator is the one, who from forth spawns the two, yet in the order of things the one was spawned from Tao. Tao, to me is eternal and encompases all. Always was and will always be.

Taoists, to me, seem to be a society of people who have, through many many years of study and teaching, have developed methods by which they follow the Tao, in a way that most fluidly adapts to the way Tao is presented in life and the cosmos.

This of course is derived from my own studies and my own personal inner reflections, by which are heavily influenced by my own personal experiences.

This may give one reading this thread some insight as to where I am coming from, and why I started this. I am curious about the ways of a Taoist religious practitioner. Namely for the sake of understanding the life.

[Metal Mantis]

PangQuan,
Our experiences are some what similar..... On many levels... I too have been astounded at what can wash on the shore of awareness when let to guide itself... As letting your breathe rise and fall naturally.... Have you studied much Yoga in your time? I do not mean assanas (poses) but rather the self-realization asspects... I suppose they divide as well, religious/philosophical....
As a Religious Taoist I have not anything for you, as I have not joined a system, but very much appreciate this thread.... Not many people can speak in such things without being defensive of a point or idea they have subscribed to... I liked your comparison of the old writings (and new) as shells, hollow and at one point a shelter... pretty and ornate... SOmething to pick up at the beach, appreciate, learn from and then let go, apply what is useful and leave it for the rest to find and use as well.... I have to work now, more later...... Peace....

Eeeaassyyy.......... No-thing to it...... No ONE knows..... Witness the Many..... Experience the "truth" in now.... Feel...... Breathe....... Becoming aware; Self...... Liberation.........

[PangQuan]

Every religion has something to offer

thats something the Dali Lama once said. Probably not exactly to the word but you get the point.

This is kind of what I am getting at. I think you can take this message and broaden it even more. Each and every experience or situation has something to offer.

I was never shy to try new things. It was almost as though I was an addict to life itself. I lived in the fast lane for sure, I made mistakes. But I learned from my mistakes. Those mistakes are experiences and knowledge I now posess that others do not who have not been there themselves.

Good and bad, you really just have to roll with the punches, if you try to hard to redirect the world you will just end up finding a wall.

I kind of have come to my own phylisophical outlook on life. There are deffinate influences from outside sources, but much of what I see is from my own eyes. Not from the gaze of others. I also realize that others will most assuredly see things that I am incapable of finding on my own, or would at least be hard pressed to discover with the limited amount of time I have on this plain.

Im not into tryng to push my way on others, as I dont think anyone is actually capable of living with the exact same mental qualities as myself.

but i have to leave work, ill continue my babbling later. probably tomorrow.

[Chuck Man Chuck]

"However, modern academia have finally began the to learn the truth of Taoism, awakening the whole organic Taoist tradition. These scholars include: Livia Koln, Michael Sasso, James Miller, Russel Kirkland, Issabelle Robinet, Kristopher Schipper etc... Not all of these scholars are Taoists, but some are. Many like to throw there two cents in and not give a direct translation, but they all agree on one thing, That Taoism is a specific religion and that there never has been a separation of religion and philosophy, but groups were established to get together and dissect the philosophies of Taoism to better understand their religion and philosophies that make it (much like bible study). "

Hello 7 Star,

To the contrary, in my readings I have discovered no such consensus. Try reading J.J. Clark's "Tao of the West", the picture he paints is more like everything is so synthesized, one can't really tell a Daoist from a Confucian, from a Buddhist. Though I have encountered the attitude before that the word Taoist/Daoist should only be used for a Daoist Priest, one of my teachers, Liu Ming thought this; I didn't agree with it then, and I don't agree with it now, and there is no such agreement of academia.

Check this definition of Taoist on WordNet, it has two meanings:

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?...8&curtab=501_1

[7 star Method]

Hello,

This is getting quite tiring and this will be my last post - I assure of it...

It seems that everyone here has two cents to put in about Taoism to prove me wrong, but yet no experience with the actual practices.

Clark, To respond to your comment of "the picture he paints is more like everything is so synthesized, one can't really tell a Daoist from a Confucian, from a Buddhist " is a statement regarding popular religion. The Chinese populace usually claim that the temple they belong to is either the three, but in truth all of the temple's are combined here in the west. As for JJ Clark, As a modern Taoist scholar, I am not even sure he is recognized as one - I found some stuff on his book on the internet, it seemed a bit new agey and out dated, never the less I will try to get around and read his book.

Thank you, it was fun being persecuted for being a Taoist.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Odd, that a self-proclaimed Taoist would label reasonably civil dialogue as a persecution of faith.. and, perhaps more odd, to assume..

It seems that everyone here has two cents to put in about Taoism to prove me wrong, but yet no experience with the actual practices.

I have visited 2 Taoist temples/shrines, engaged in several ceremonies, and had lengthy discussions with the local leaders regarding the differences illustrated in this thread.. from which i draw the following conclusions..

There is a distinct difference between philosophical and religious Taoism.. Religious Taoists seem to find comfort in rituals and cult-like organizations.. the practitioners seemed annoyed with perspectives not in agreement with their understanding of Taoism.. while i agree there should be some ritual in the process of training in Taoist arts, i have little faith that very specific attire or obscure ritual for its own sake will deliver the wisdom of the sages.. training is its own ritual, a system to assist in developing physical, mental and spiritual attributes consistent with a desired goal.. much of the ritual i observed seemed like artificial barriers to the attainment sought by the practitioners, like a control device initiated to preserve particular perspectives and preserve positions of respect and power within the organization.. it seemed to be migrating toward just another religion, a diluting of principles by keeping practitioners busy with ritual.. full of hierarchy and idolatry.. it seems like Religious Taoism strives to codify the individual experience of Tao into a marketable commodity..

My personal experience with philosophical Taoism is profound and deeply rewarding.. i am acquainted with several local people that follow the precepts of sages and who research at great depth the disciplines associated with Taoism.. we meet occasionally to compare experiences and reaffirm the benefits of our chosen paths.. it is wise to discern between practical disciplines and pointless ritual.. i have seen the effects of training complicated by an abundance of ritual that confuses the purpose of each.. before the conception of Taoism as a ritualistic religion there were sanctuaries for like-minded practitioners on a path that would advance the awareness of unity and complimenting opposites.. these folks found their "Tao" in the life they lived, not at the feet of Masters telling them how it "should" be.. certainly, there were adepts that were revered for their accomplishments but not worshiped.. they held informal gatherings and offered their insights as indicators or experiences that a pilgrim, not as advanced on the path as they, could use to have their own experience/insight of Tao.. that these adepts/sages had a faithful following of aspiring practitioners was not a predicate for religion, it was a call for awareness of the importance of the Taoist experience..

In hindsight, i suppose the term "Taoism" could be appropriate as a label for religious perspectives.. but, the term "Taoist" should not be exclusively religious.. a Taoist is one that aspires to an understanding and experience of Tao.. it is not appropriate for the religious Taoists to insist that the Taoist label refer only to their beliefs.. i can be labeled a communist for advocating a communal lifestyle yet shun the trappings of communism as an organized corruption of the ideal.. both the world and human consciousness are big enough to harbor both concepts without conflict.. it's kind of like the Irish situation, Catholics vs Protestants, where each have the same goal but quarrel over how to get there..

My personal philosophy is.. "worship nothing, yet maintain a sacred reverence for ALL things"

Be well..

[frog]

Taichi Bob,

Do you really think that calling someone's religion a 'dead and rotting road (sic)' is 'reasonably civil?'