Creatine

[Toby]

I find creatine to be quite effective in aiding recovery and boosting performance

That's why I'm taking it - I don't care about size. Suits my PTP and HIIT type training and I thought I'd give it a go.

mickey, the link describes where the creatine comes from - some German variety off the top of my head.

Everyone - I don't get why I need water as opposed to all the other liquid I drink but I take the point - I'll try to increase my intake. As it is, I should've mentioned that I usually drink juice with 1/2 water, 1/2 juice. Does that count? How much water do I need in proportion before it counts?

[mickey]

Hi Mo Lung,

No studies just simple biology 101. What are the many purposes of water in your system? Take the time to study that. It is worth it.

I would not want studies; I want healthy people.

I read the TwinLab report about creatine when they were bringing it to the market. It was incredibly pro creatine. They wrote about the perks in their Muscular Development magazine and, somehow, omitted the drawbacks. This was during the time when they were supposed to have been going all natural. Former bodybuilder Rick Wayne wrote for them because of this new direction. They even managed to get the late Steve Reeves invloved because of the "all natural steroid free" snowjob they were putting forth.

They failed to convince me. I saw what they were omitting and was able to see the potential dangers of taking such a product. And I am not afraid to share that with others.


Toby, I cannot tell you how much water to take because I do not touch the stuff. I simply noticed from your listing that your organs are already working to filter what you are presently taking. Taking creatine would intensify the process because it takes water away.


mickey

[Mo Lung]

Everyone - I don't get why I need water as opposed to all the other liquid I drink but I take the point - I'll try to increase my intake. As it is, I should've mentioned that I usually drink juice with 1/2 water, 1/2 juice. Does that count? How much water do I need in proportion before it counts?

Water (just good old water on it's own) is essential for proper cell function. If the cells have to filter out other stuff to get to the pure water, the less effective the drink is in providing water to the cells.

[Mo Lung]

Hi Mo Lung,

No studies just simple biology 101. What are the many purposes of water in your system? Take the time to study that. It is worth it.

I would not want studies; I want healthy people.

And herein lies your problem. I long ago learned to ignore healthy people! The thing is, people will report all sorts of different levels of health and only when large numbers of people are studied in controlled conditions will real information become clear.

And suggesting that I take the time to study the many purposes of water is a little condescending, don't you think? I'm advocating the intake of plenty of water. It's this claim that I was asking for verification of:

In training, you will need the extra water to avoid overheating. Sudden death from overheating (heat stroke) is a real possibility with creatine.

Can you use "simple biology 101" to explain that for me? (The creatine/heat stroke link). Also, as it's a "real possibility" I'd like to see some sources citing it as occurring, because I've never seen any to date. Therefore, if it's never actually happened, it's hardly a real possibility.

And for the record, I don't necessarily condone creatine use. I try to avoid all artificial supplements as I think we operate best from a natural diet. However, I have used creatine (and other supplements) before for a number of reasons. For one, it's my job to know about this stuff, so I like first hand experiencial knowledge.

I still occasionally use creatine when my work/training load is particularly high, but it's rare that my load is high enough to warrant it. I can maintain a pretty full on schedule without feeling the need for it. But I won't scaremonger about it like you are without some evidence.

[mickey]

Mo Lung,

"If it has never happened it's hardly a real possibility"


Okay Mo Lung. If that is what you believe I will not contend with you. There have been no long term studies with creatine. The current users are the guinea pigs.

I was not at all trying to be condescending when I suggested that you look into the uses of water in your body. It gives you a good picture of how things work and how water is so necessary. If you are telling Toby that water is just necessary for the cells to filter out their garbage, then I say there are more things that water helps with. It is not an issue of intelligence vs stupidity,it is more about becoming a better informed consumer. Addititonally when you understand its uses, you will understand the potential dangers when inadequate amounts of water is present. You really should not need a study for the knowledge you have gained.


My main issue with creatine is the result of cell voluminization as a result of its use. Water is pulled into the cell expanding its size. This is water that is used for removing wastes from the body as well as maintaining body temperature. Now you have less of it to do those functions. If you are working out intensely, you will need to hydrate yourself more than usual. If you don't, your body will heat up. If you are not perspiring while doing a protracted period of intense exercise, you should be concerned.


When it comes to studies, the manufacturers depend largely on the ignorance of the consumer and tend to spoon feed them the info that they want to hear. It was done with steroids, andro, and with creatine.

I am happy that you have never had a bad experience with creatine. And I hope that current users do not experience any future malady as a result of creatine use.


News Flash for those creatine users:

When the product came out and I read the Twinlab report, I actually went out and bought a bottle. Then I started to think about the things that they were not talking about and I threw the bottle away. I never took one pill.

I was able to see through the BS. I am just trying to help others.

Mo Lung, if you want a study, it will not happen. There is no money in it for the corporations

mickey

[Toby]

Gotta admit to all you water-pushers - I felt pretty dehydrated yesterday and today. Drank lots of water. The sort of dehydrated that you might feel after taking antihistamines, for example. On Friday night I managed to close the #2 CoC for 4 reps in the right hand - my previous PR was 3. I should've kept going for that set, but I'd already done my left and my right's stronger anyway so I stopped after 4.

[Vash]

On Friday night I managed to close the #2 CoC. . . I should've kept going. . . I stopped after . . .

Whoah.

[Mo Lung]

Mo Lung,

"If it has never happened it's hardly a real possibility"


Okay Mo Lung. If that is what you believe I will not contend with you. There have been no long term studies with creatine. The current users are the guinea pigs.

There are already studies done over 5 year periods. That's not especially long term in life duration, but as no one has died of heat stroke during that time plus, then it's not true to say that dying that way is a real possibility. It's never happened yet, over many years of creatine use, therefore it's an outside possibility at best.

I was not at all trying to be condescending when I suggested that you look into the uses of water in your body. It gives you a good picture of how things work and how water is so necessary. If you are telling Toby that water is just necessary for the cells to filter out their garbage, then I say there are more things that water helps with. It is not an issue of intelligence vs stupidity,it is more about becoming a better informed consumer. Addititonally when you understand its uses, you will understand the potential dangers when inadequate amounts of water is present. You really should not need a study for the knowledge you have gained.

I know this, but it's not especially relevant to the main point. As far as I'm concerned, Toby should be drinking a lot more water anyway, creatine or not.

My main issue with creatine is the result of cell voluminization as a result of its use. Water is pulled into the cell expanding its size. This is water that is used for removing wastes from the body as well as maintaining body temperature. Now you have less of it to do those functions. If you are working out intensely, you will need to hydrate yourself more than usual. If you don't, your body will heat up. If you are not perspiring while doing a protracted period of intense exercise, you should be concerned.

Indeed. Where are the stories of creatine users not sweating?

When it comes to studies, the manufacturers depend largely on the ignorance of the consumer and tend to spoon feed them the info that they want to hear. It was done with steroids, andro, and with creatine.

/snip/

Mo Lung, if you want a study, it will not happen. There is no money in it for the corporations.

Of course. But I presume that someone such as yourself has the ability to seek out independent studies. No one with an ounce of sense would trust a study in any way connected to the corporations involved, in competition or otherwise.

[Toby]

As far as I'm concerned, Toby should be drinking a lot more water anyway, creatine or not.

I drink lots of liquids (i.e. milk and tea) just not much water.

Indeed. Where are the stories of creatine users not sweating?

I'm a sweaty bastidge anyway. I haven't stopped in the last few days. I'm typing this 5min after HIIT on the rowing ergo and I'm sweating right now.

[Mo Lung]

I drink lots of liquids (i.e. milk and tea) just not much water.

See above! Face it, ya juicing hippy - you need more water!

I'm a sweaty bastidge anyway. I haven't stopped in the last few days. I'm typing this 5min after HIIT on the rowing ergo and I'm sweating right now.

Yeah, I'm sure you are. Still, I'm sure mickey will supply us with some evidence of his claims. He wouldn't just be making all this stuff up, huh.

[mickey]

Mo Lung,

I never said that creatine users do not sweat! Jeesh!!!

Between my last post and today's, I thought a lot about our polite exchanges and I really do mean polite. I have seen so much worse at this forum. That being said, you have my greatest respect.

The issues that I raise are not those gleaned from studies; but from knowledge applied. I actively engage things with the knowledge that I gained and realize the potential dangers. I did use the terms risks and danger. That does not mean that it will definitely happen; simply, there is a risk and a danger. Some things are certain between us: we assess things differently and we use our knowledge differently. That will not keep me from interacting with you respectfully in the future. Nor will it send me to my pillow in tears. You want a study. I wish I could produce some. For me the ramifications of using creatine easy to see. I erred horribly in thinking that others would easily understand it.

By the way, creatine has been around a lot longer than that 5 year study that you mention. Again, the current users are its guinea pigs.

Question: Are you selling this stuff???

Toby already spoke about feeling dehydrated. Yes, you agree that he does need more water. With creatine even more so.

You want facts based on studies, etc. Take the time to learn how your body works. Don't be so lazy (not said with anger, but with sincere caring-- we are martial arts brothers and sisters here). Look at it as part of your kung fu training. I dare not say that have learned all that there is. I am just a student on the road who cares.

If you need to discount my statements because of the lack of scientific data. So be it. I am at peace with it.

Yours Respectfully,

mickey

P.S.: You are most welcome to have the very last word. Now, that is condescending!

[mickey]

Mo Lung,

Before you get in that last word.

This is not a study, but an experience:

http://www.nutritionalsupplements.com/workgnc.html

Check out this one: pay attention to the words "heat intolerance"

http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery.../creatine.html

For every good experience, there is a bad one. To be fair, here is a short term study:

http://druginfo.onu.edu/herbals/creatine.html


What about the deaths of those young wrestlers from dehydration and hyperthermia? It was quickly stated that creatine was not the culprit. Why Mo Lung?

THERE IS TOO MUCH FREAKIN' MONEY TO BE MADE HERE!!!!

I did not draw my conclusions from their deaths, I saw the risks and the dangers.

And no, I am no oracle.

Peace Brother,

mickey

[Mo Lung]

Mo Lung,

I never said that creatine users do not sweat! Jeesh!!!

Between my last post and today's, I thought a lot about our polite exchanges and I really do mean polite. I have seen so much worse at this forum. That being said, you have my greatest respect.

Thanks. Likewise.

The issues that I raise are not those gleaned from studies; but from knowledge applied. I actively engage things with the knowledge that I gained and realize the potential dangers. I did use the terms risks and danger. That does not mean that it will definitely happen; simply, there is a risk and a danger.

What you actually said was that it was a very real possibility, but there is nothing to back up this assumption on your part.

Some things are certain between us: we assess things differently and we use our knowledge differently. That will not keep me from interacting with you respectfully in the future. Nor will it send me to my pillow in tears. You want a study. I wish I could produce some. For me the ramifications of using creatine easy to see. I erred horribly in thinking that others would easily understand it.

That's because you think these things are easy to see, yet they have never been seen. You are making assumptions with no verifiable evidence. Surely you can see that's not very credible?

By the way, creatine has been around a lot longer than that 5 year study that you mention.

I know. I was erring on the side of caution for the benefit of argument.

Again, the current users are its guinea pigs.

To a degree, yes. But we'd never do anything without some kind fo experiment. You do know that creatine is naturally accurring, right?

Question: Are you selling this stuff???

If you took the time to read my posts properly you would know that I don't even advocate using it. I'm against any supplements in the most part. Due to my work/training load I have used it in the past, I may use it again. I used it to inform myself firsthand about it as that's part of my job.

Toby already spoke about feeling dehydrated. Yes, you agree that he does need more water. With creatine even more so.

Agreed. But he needs more water anyway, which was my point.

You want facts based on studies, etc. Take the time to learn how your body works. Don't be so lazy (not said with anger, but with sincere caring-- we are martial arts brothers and sisters here). Look at it as part of your kung fu training. I dare not say that have learned all that there is. I am just a student on the road who cares.

Have a look at my sig and see what I do for a living. I know plenty about how the body works and I continually strive to learn more as I know there's an awful lot more for me to learn. And you wonder why I call you condescending?

If you need to discount my statements because of the lack of scientific data. So be it. I am at peace with it.

Good for you. However, I know that people are clouded by their preconceptions and psychological and psychosomatic tendencies greatly affect what people think. Also, preconceptions play a large role. That's the beauty of the independent study. It is unbiased, has control groups and is as good a realistic method of learning as we can have. You can theorise all you like based on your assumptions, but I'd believe a professional team of unbiased scientists that base their opinions in considerable empirical experimentation over your singular assumptions every time.

P.S.: You are most welcome to have the very last word. Now, that is condescending!

No more so than the rest of your posts.

[Mo Lung]

Mo Lung,

Before you get in that last word.

This is not a study, but an experience:

http://www.nutritionalsupplements.com/workgnc.html

Check out this one: pay attention to the words "heat intolerance"

http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery.../creatine.html

For every good experience, there is a bad one. To be fair, here is a short term study:

http://druginfo.onu.edu/herbals/creatine.html

There's not really anything here to back up your arguments, mickey. Heat intolerance is mentioned, but not death by heat stroke and these are anecdotal studies.

I agree with you that there is not enough long term study done here and until there is we will never know for sure. However, there is no evidence to back up your level of scaremongering. And I reiterate - I'm not really in favour of supplements anyway, but people will use them, so it's responsible to give them the universally approved advice, not your own agenda.

What about the deaths of those young wrestlers from dehydration and hyperthermia? It was quickly stated that creatine was not the culprit. Why Mo Lung?

THERE IS TOO MUCH FREAKIN' MONEY TO BE MADE HERE!!!!

I did not draw my conclusions from their deaths, I saw the risks and the dangers.

And no, I am no oracle.

Peace Brother,

mickey

What deaths are these?

[mickey]

Hi Mo Lung,

If dehydration is not addressed, hyperthermia (heatstroke) will develop. And that can kill.

By the way, I do not scaremonger.

A few years ago there were a few wrestlers who died from dehydration and heatstroke. Creatine was implicated. I have been looking for the article for you but the person at this site makes mention of it:

http://www.nucare.com/noname4.html

When the news of these guys deaths hit the stands there was serious panic about creatine use. The funny thing is that the back page of the newspaper in my area had in bold printing on the back page (this was within a week after the deaths were reported): Creatine is Safe.

It does not end here. Shortly after those guys died (I'd say within eight months) there were two deaths of high school football players who died from heatstroke. Different teams. Different parts of the country. What was strange about it was that they were not playing in extremely hot weather. This was reported once in the media. Their deaths were treated as a mystery. And there was no follow up. It was practically ignored. And since it was stated in the media that creatine is safe, creatine was not even considered a contributing factor.

Check this out. Here is someone who is saying the same thing that I am saying:

http://www.personalhealthzone.com/he...e_effects.html

mickey