Ho Chun

[shirkers1]

Yeah let me make it perfectly clear. I in no way think that my training or anyone's for that matter is the "most invincible fighting art/style" out there. I strongly feel that it boils down to the individual and the training that person gives themselves no matter the style. You fight how you train, and there is someone out there better period. Each of us chooses to ad tools to our arsenal and we use them. You have hook line, and stright line. Upper middle and lower lines of attack, no matter what style you train in it boils down to those facts. Ground or stand up it's all relative. Whatever fist, strike blah blah it all boils down to that. So I am completely against everything that is represented by this school... I've seen posts by their students on other sites that simply make me laugh out loud. Any one can be brave while walking around with 10 guys talking garbage to a 16 year old kid who trains a different style then them.... These are tactics used by so called invincible combat specialists... Brain washed is more like it.

[fa_jing]

I don't know nothing but what I've heard from some people I respect is that http://www.combatshuaichiao.com/acsca.html is the most authentic Shuai-Chiao in the states. If you could train with someone who trained with GM CTS in China for years, then why bother to believe someone else's claims that they are the best.

Still waiting for Monkeyslap Too, our resident SC expert on this.

[fa_jing]

oops, looks like Chiccione studied directly with GM CTS too.

[shirkers1]

Thanks fajing for posting the link

well in the news section, ho chun openly descredits pretty much that whole association as not being "real combat shuai".. But at least they have footage up showing what they have to offer, that's more than I can say about ho chun.

[SevenStar]

oops, looks like Chiccione studied directly with GM CTS too.

I think there's been some bad blood between him and the others though. I know there have been some posts about it, but since we lost them in the upgrade, I can't search for them.

[ewallace]

I think there's been some bad blood between him and the others though. I know there have been some posts about it, but since we lost them in the upgrade, I can't search for them.

Google 'em.

[kungfu cowboy]

Some things I picked up from people who have interacted with Chicoine or students on some level :

I've heard some stories about how they would go out to bars to pick fights as part of their training.

I've heard that their art is the real deal.

I've heard that their art is not the real deal.

And perhaps the most entertaining, I've heard it from a police friend and my co-worker whose ex used to work there at the adult theatre and toy shop owned by Mr. Chicoine himself. That's my favorite!

[shirkers1]

Yeah I know for a fact that some of them are bouncers. Bouncers are my favorite people in the world by the way.. (7* that was sarcasm )

What they do is they get jobs as bouncers and try their skills out on drunk people. That's a great way to test your skills... a completely sober person against a drunk stumbling fool. ...... (7* some more sarcasm for ya) Like I said.... lets lift some weights, walk around in packs of 10, pick fights with people who can't even stand up, that seems to be the M. O. of these guys. A big thumbs up to the invincible combat artists....

[SevenStar]

Hey! Not all bouncers are bad - I'm about to become one.

[shirkers1]

7* bouncers have their place...


But in my experience. If you didn't have bouncers you wouldn't have as many fights at clubs and bars. If everyone knew there wasn't someone there to break up the fight then you'd have less people wanting to fight. 90% of the street fights I've been involved with, the bouncers and their friends were the people causing the fights.

Bouncers should be out watching everyone's car making sure no one is jacking stereos or keying them... but once again that is my opinion .....

[stonewarrior67]

Howdy,
I hope this helps. Ho Chun is a closed door school, which means you dont show up with your months dues and expect to get trained. You have to be referred by someone who is in the school already and can vouch for your character. Once your accepted there, there is no contracts or expensive gi's to buy. The only thing that is promised there is sweat, pain and training like you never seen before...oh yes and a little blood from time to time. G/M Chicoine has stated that he is not in the business to make $ but to spread the knowledge of S/C and to make fighters. His dues barely keep the utilities paid at the school.
First of all the challenge on the web site you refer to are to a few different people who have claimed to be Changs named predesessors (sp?) People like Weng, Chema and Demara took advantage of Chang before and after his death, according to G/M Chicoine. Chang gave G/M Chicoine the throne to his Intenational S/C Assocation before his death in '86. All of Taiwan backs G/M Chicoine including life long Chang students Roger Soo and Jeng Shing Ping among others. Every couple of years G/M Chicoine takes his best students to Taiwan to train and to be trained. The Taiwanese Govt throwes him a parade in his honor with many dignataries and he is treated like royalty there. Chang was considered a national treasure there and they still respect his name and who he named to carry on S/C . G/M Chicoine and his students then they take a so called road trip to different S/C schools where they watch and give demonstrations, also allowing time to visit Changs burial site.
There is video around but not available to the public. G/M Chicoine could by all means run a flashy website and offer video's of all kind but again making $ is not his intent.
TX sifu David Pickens trained under G/M Chicoine and are on great terms. The derogatory remarks were meant to only those he felt jilted Chang. G/M Chicoine has allowed students to open schools under his tutledge in of course Ohio. California, Massachusets(i'm a horrible at spelling) along with a few other states.
All Ho Chun students think they are great...well of course they do...have you ever talked to a student from a martial arts school who thought that they weren't? Self confidence man!
G/M Chicoine fights (which I believe his last fight was in '98 or so) are closed door and a few of his top students also fight in this manner. Keep in mind this is the old style of school and the way training, fighting and such has not changed much since Chang renamed the school from Hop Sing to Ho Chun and reviewed what G/M Chicoine was teaching in the late '70's. Also, Check out Ohio States Shuai Chaio page and you can see one of G/M Chicoines students winning a couple of tounaments in the lt. heavy weight div. He won one or two years in a row I cant remember, his last name is Cio if you look.
As for myself I trained since I was little, first of course Tae Kwon Do, then I trained privately under a student of John Allens (GreenDragonStudio, Stow Ohio) and then with **** Pitts (Art of Desire) and was lucky enough to train under G/M Chicoine for about 8 years in the '90's and the training has stuck with me to this day. The only reason I left was having a wife and three kids were a bit much and the training is not only demanding on the body but of the time. (note: there's 4 kids now). I am a police officer of 16 years and teach other police officers defensive tactics. With that said G/M Chicoine is going to turn 75 this summer and though I'm half his age there is no way in hades that I would stand in the same room with the man if he had it in for me. See those pics of him breaking breaks? They could be ribs =-)
G/M Chicoine is not only a great fighter and teacher but he is also a fine human being with a great old big old heart! My hat is eternally off to him.
I hope this helps some and keep training hard.
B.M.K.
Akron, Ohio

[stonewarrior67]

Yes, there was one or two guys who bounced for a year or two but to my knowledge they did not pick any fights or on any drunk slobs. I do do know they that they didn't back down from anyone picking a fight with them. These guys were not your average 6'04", 300 plus pound bouncers who'd make an obnoxious jerk think twice before starting something, they were around 6'00" under 200lbs normal looking guys who took the wrath of some deserving whack jobs before they pounded them.
Plus in the history there was also one or two crazy guys who would walk into a bar by themselves and start fighting the whole bar....not my idea of sane rationale...but they liked it.
S/C is being taught and used by Americas SP.
Again I hope this helps

[shirkers1]

Stone warrior, know a cat named Paul Hooper? He's a detective for the akron pd. He's actually the guy who got me started in chinese boxing 15 years ago....

[shirkers1]

Check the image attached, paul is on the far right. The other guys are akron pd as well.

Yes, I am enjoying the 95 degree weather right now. Yes that would more than likely be the same mike.... He trained with ong I believe when he was younger, I'm not positive on that though. I know that from what I've seen there wasn't much respect for what any of those guys have to offer MA wise. SC was one of the first things he did actually then he moved on to bigger and better things. I know there has been some issues between some of those other schools because of this and I actually was dragged into the middle of it when I was younger because I trained under him. Straight out of a movie where challanges were made. I know a few of Ho Chuns X students work out with him now because of how things panned out so to speak when confrontations came to a head. I stopped training with mike when they were out in barberton, I moved to phoenix and now teach out here.... I go back a few times during the year to train etc with him. As for bald guys there were a few guys in the class that were bald so you could be speaking about ed, doug or others. .

I had a friend that lived over at robert kraus's house so I know a few of ****ie pitts's guys too. I was over there a few times and watched them work out. Didn't really get along with them either, I seem to have a thing for guys who think their style is the greatest.... we see where that got pitts.. It seems like these schools tend to go around harrassing other schools, if you're so good then why worry about what other people are doing. Mind your self and you'll be fine.

[Ho Chun]

I never meant for my name to become a thread, but since it has, here goes. I think Grandmaster Chang was very friendly with many Shuai Chiao people. I think that the next generation has had many problems and have created tention amongst the whole martial arts community. The next generation (myself included) is alot different.
In 1997 my Teacher, Grandmaster Gene L. Chicoine gave me permisson to open up a school. I have gained so much from him. I have been involved in the Chinese martial arts for 31 years, with him since 1989. Nothing improved my Kung Fu more than the specialized programs that I was taught, Iron Palm, Iron Vest, Muscle Restructure, Semen Retention, and Poison Hand.
Hsing-I is a very big part of the curriculum. I also give Hsing-I and Tai Chi alot of credit for taking my Kung-Fu to the level where it is today. Shuai Chiao is a very good style on it's own, but to quote Grandmaster Chicoine, "no man has ever become champion using only one style".
I think that the "air of aerogance" that people read into is there, and it shouldn't be, but it is. I say from experience, "that the information there is second to none" and again, this is from my 31 years of experience
Chinese exercises are done to enhance the fighters combat effectiveness. Arm grabs will develop a fighters punching power. Pull overs will increase your throwing strength. All of the Chinese strength development exercises when performed correctly with intensity and consistancy will give anyone an edge over their opponent.
Check out www.noweightsworkout.com