Wing Chun Brethren...What have you done to "modify" your own personal Wing Chun?

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Joijitsu27:
Hi there! I'm the guy Highlander is refering to, and yes, we do groundfighting in our WC. That means: we train to foil grappling attacks, takedown attempts, we do mat work from disadvantaged positions (headlocks, guard, mount, etc...), reversals of these positions, reversals of those reversals....and all that sort of stuff. I also have trained on many occasions with some BJJ friends of mine (blue belts at the Carlos Machado school in Dallas). And I can tell you this, Wing Chun DOES have groundfighting, and it's not BJJ. There are definate similarites in many of the basic positions, but what we do in these positions is pretty different, and it's definatly Wing Chun. In our school, I'd say we spend about 20% of our time dealing with grappeling style attacks. Hell, the very first thing we teach when you start are basic counters to single and double arm grabs, front/rear chokes, bearhugs, etc....if fact, you learn 11 of these before you've even seen both Tan and gaun sau. To be honest with you, I can't really imagine others out there aren't learning this stuff, it seems both too important and too integral to being a well rounded fighter. Anyway, I'm kinda pressed for time at the moment, but if you want to, post your email address, and we can discuss this at length. Our school has a very open door policy about exchanging techniques with others, so I'm pretty sure some sort of visit could be arranged. Highlander posted the link to my kwoon, so check that out. BTW, just to let people know, the antigrappler tapes on our site just cover basic WC stratagies for dealing with grappling, and doesn't show alot of mat work, as it focuses most of it's time on standing counters to grappling techniques, the clinch, takedown attempts, throws, etc...but we do much more in class, and that's where most of the "on the ground" groundwork takes place. Still, the tapes have some great basic strategies and techniques on them. Hehe, ok, I'll stop pimping my sifu's tapes now..... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
Seriously though, if you are willing to travel and learn, he's more than willing to teach. Post your email, and we'll talk!


Thanks!
Sandman[Wing Chun]

[Polaris]

Like Huang, I have been starting to do some
more circular stuff (I have a fascination
with Bagua), and it has been proving to be
quite useful. There aren't any grappling
schools nearby, and even though I prefer
striking/standup fighting, there would definetly be some merit in learning some
ground fighting if there was someone to teach
me. I will admit that both my teacher, and his teacher are pretty close minded about
other styles, except for a couple internal ones. The thing is though they both have a lot of experience with other styles, they
both use to wrestle, my teacher's teacher has
competed in full contact. My point being is they have been around, and after all the other styles they studied and have come into contact with, they have decided to mainly stick to Wing Chun. My main concern with Wing
Chun isn't really whether it will work or not, but whether or not I will be able to use it properly. It gets discouraging when I do Chi Sao with this one other guy from class, because we always end up getting in a pushing match, we never really pull off any
of our techniques decisively against one another, and generally end up getting very
sloppy. My teacher makes the stuff look
so easy and has no problem getting it to work, but then we try and still screw it up
(this can get very frustrating), but since me
and that guy are at about the same skilllevel
I don't think I should concern myself too much...We are gonna be starting full contact
sometime in the future, so hopefully I will really get the chance to try seriously try it
out. There is supposedly a place near Cleveland where all styles are welcome to come and fight, and I'm hoping to make it up
there sometime as it would be a great opporitunity.

I apologize in advance for any typos [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[jojitsu27]

Sandman2,
Please e-mail me and let ne know more about what you guys are doing!!
I am extrememly interested, I have been doing Wing Chun for 10 years and have never been able to find legitimate Wing Chun ground techniques....please contact me!
My address is jo_jitsu@hotmail.com
It sounds really cool what you guys are doing, I try and work out constantly against guys at my bjj school. But I can't seem to find any Wing Chun that works on the ground from what I know.
Is there a secret Wing Chun ground form or something?
Also, what lineage are you guys?
Thanks,
jojitsu27

[DragonzRage]

Secret Wing Chun groundfighting form? LOL!! That's a bunch of hooey. The truth of the matter is that wing chun and other traditional systems like it do not have any sort of extensive groundfighting science. Of course there are always strategies and techniques within the system that can be applied to a ground situation, but let's be honest. Traditional Gung fu does not have any sort of ground grappling that can even compare to the refined and developed methods of modern submission grappling styles. The smart traditionalist is the guy who familiarizes himself with a ground situation learning escapes and counters and perhaps applying some of his own technique to the positioning and structure of groundfighting (wing chun has many striking methods that can adapted very well to a good base in submission grappling). This is the real deal when someone says their wing chun teaches grappling. But all those numbskulls who talk about hidden movements in the forms and "secret" techniques are nothing but a bunch of scam artists.

~Max

[BabyBug]

I'm not sure how I feel about calling it "modifying" WC. It doesn't sound like modification as much as it sounds like combining WC with aspects of another style. Personally I have a good deal of respect for the style, and I've found that it's a great compliment to ANY system.

As for my approach to Wing Chun, (although I must confess I don't fight a "pure" anything much anymore)I've found that the parry/counterstrike method is a great set up for chin na techniques, throws, etc.

----------------
Praying Mantis Forever!

[flavour54]

I tried to tell you all in similar thread"The most well rounded art."

[This message has been edited by flavour54 (edited 07-13-2000).]

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Dragonzrage:


1)I never said there was a Wing Chun Ground form.
2)Our wing chun does in fact have a comprehensive system of ground fighting/grappeling. Do we do nearly as much submission work as BJJ? No, be we do way more striking, and about as much positioning. One of the things I've noticed from working out with BJJ folks, they tend to "position, then submit", we tend to "position, then strike". And yes, that inclueds counters to the mount, the guard, blah blah blah, all that type of stuff. Hey, if you don't belive it, come on down to our school, I've never been coy about where we're at. I honestly can't think of a better way of showing you. Other wise, it's just a matter of me saying "Yes we do" and you saying "No you don't". Heh, I'll trust my own opinion on what I know.... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

Jo_jitsu, I'll email you.


Thanks!
Sandman[Wing Chun]

[DragonzRage]

Sandman,

To quote my own post,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DragonzRage:
The smart traditionalist is the guy who familiarizes himself with a ground situation learning escapes and counters and perhaps applying some of his own technique to the positioning and structure of groundfighting (wing chun has many striking methods that can adapted very well to a good base in submission grappling). This is the real deal when someone says their wing chun teaches grappling.
[/quote]

So isn't that what your club is doing? Sounds great to me. I never said ALL wing chun school that teach grappling claim a secret form.

[WT]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jojitsu27:
In light of the post on modified vs traditional wing chun, I was wondering if I was the only Wing Chun man who has modified his personal wing chun?
I have added some boxing strikes that I think fit in well with Wing Chun, some Southern Mantis footwork, and of course Brazilian Jujitsu!
Thus I have developed my own personal "modified" wing chun.
Have any of you done likewise?
What other styles or techniques have you added to your Wing Chun that you think complement the style?
-jojitsu27[/quote]

Wich boxing strikes would fit in with WC?
WT

[DragonzRage]

After reviewing the tape of the William Cheung/Emin Boztepe fight (yes that same old playground style fight that keeps coming up in topics here) I must conclude that there are no hidden groundfighting forms in wing chun

Sorry couldn't help it [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[Sihing73]

Dragonrage,

You should be ashamed of yourself [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]Of course they are there they are just hidden so you can't see them ROFLOL (See here is a "hidden" technique I am "rolling on the floor laughing out loud" while doing Wing Chun a fine example of hidden groundfighting)

I used to compete in Judo and I hated groundwork so much I would throw my opponenet and then step back to let him get up so I could throw him again. Unfortunately the Judges did not like that and sometimes I was required to do groundwork. Still, I think there are principles which can be translated into ground fighting. Then again, I prefer to run and am thinkng of creating/modifying my Wing Chun to more of an Reebock system. Reminds me of a story I once heard of a monk that learned to run very fast and would outrun all of his attackers. Then when they were too tired to fight he would finsih them off. I think I may be on to something here. Will keep you informed LOL

Peace,

Dave

[flavour54]

All western boxing strikes fit in with Wing Chun as they all comply to the 108 principles of Wing Chun so long as you don't turn your hand past a 45 degree angle as boxers do to get maximum power transferal through the glove. Wing Chun has groundfighting, although the goundfighting we have in our school is not that extensive and we have been practising Ju Jutsu there as well. For all traditionalists which I consider myself to be, Wing Chun was never meant to be hard and fast with its techniques. If this was the case neither of the weapons would have been included and Sil Lum Tao would probably look different. I've been to three different schools of Wing Chun and all of them had slight variations on the movements. eg one schools tan sao was at a 10 degree angle and they had no kicks at all.
And they claim to be the "real" Wing Chun.
Wing Chun was never meant die by having hard and fast techniques but is meant to be held together by 108 principles and also concepts and strategies. In fact wasn't Wing Chun a mixed martial art to start with. Were the techniques not taken from other martial arts?
Perhaps this post can bridge(pun) the gap a little between traditionalists and realists.

------------------
"take the pebble from my hand"

[WT]

108 principles?
Could you list them for me,please.
WT

[Highlander]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WT:
108 principles?
Could you list them for me,please.
WT[/quote]

I can't list them, but Yip Man had them carved into small stones. The stones are currently in the Wing Chun museum in Ohio.

[WT]

Ok,the Kuen Kuit,now I get it. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
WT