Is Master Pel Typical ?

[lamakwoklee]

A few of you almost completely misread my initial post. I could have replaced the name of "Master" Kai Uwe Pel with that of "Master" Paulie Zink, and the main point would've been the same.

Fortunately, we have "Master" Pel's own words... Holy as I'm, writing these words I see that "Master" Pel's site has been somewhat modified. I stand corrected. Good thing for him that he wasn't dealing with some Sino- Tibetan, or other mantis style masters that I know of. He'd have never got the opportunity to repent.

[Redfish]

This is great stuff. Now it's your turn to explain some things I don't get, if you would. I put your quotes in bold. By the way, there a serious note at the end about calling someone a pedophile in public and the legal implications, read it first.


"See in order for a joke to be funny everyone has to get it. So when you throw out some weak shiat like that it's hard for any one to think it's funny or see it as a joke."

I'm not sure who you mean by everyone? Do you mean that becuase you didn't understand, then it goes that no one did either? Do you mean that if you don't know something then no else must know it either? Please clarify. Did you receive E-mails from 'everyone' also confirming that they didn't get it?

" I asked because that sounded like something a pedophile would say… and it concerned me that I was having a conversation with a sick person"

Could you please explain what a pedophile usually sounds like? And how you would know?

"Or maybe it’s because I don’t have 14 kids and listen to Wu Tang Clan. I guess we’ll never know. Wow who is the labeling people now? Not all Americans have 12 illegitimate kids and listen to rap.
"

This is your best one. I said that I heard the joke used myself on a Wutang CD and therefor the company Fisher Price must be known in the USA - they are American and they said the name of the company. I never mentioned anything about people who listen to rap having 14 kids. In fact, the first place it's mentioned is in the first sentence of your quote above.

So please clarify the above quote ..do you really mean to say that particular stereotype yourself, then ask me why I said it in the same breath? Do you have a split personality?

Of course, I could just give the easy answer to the question "Wow who is the labeling people now? " ... You are. Again.


Afternote: Ok, youre trying to be cool or whatever, but actually calling someone a pedophile is very serious and people get lynched or lose their careers/life over much more casual accusations referring to that particular topic. Think about it like an adult please. If you're going to keep on at it, just insult my mother or something, thanks. I'll PM you about the legal implications of you calling me that in the public forum soon.

[shalabaji]

I thought the fisher price thing was very funny I guess some people don't get the joke like others do, as is with all jokes.

Btw, if I’m not mistaken red fish has a good case for prosecution after the comments made in a previous post - I wonder if we can get a forum covering the events of the case as they proceed.

Getting back on topic, before a discussion about what is "typical" or "atypical" behaviour / practice of a master is started, surely these terms should be clearly defined so that no-one gets caught up talking in circles (as it seems many people here do very often). So, to continue the topic (WHICH SHOULD BE IN THE MANTIS FORUMN - slap on the hand for BTL), can anyone offer a concise definition of these terms, in an objective non-juvenile manner (I guess that excludes Shirkers then).

Thanks

[cerebus]

Well... I really don't care one way or the other but someone typing "that sounded like something a pedophile would say" is NOT a good case (or even a bad case. In fact it's no case at all) for prosecution. A tasteless and insulting comment, yes, but nowhere near actually accusing someone of being pedophile. Just sayin'...

[lamakwoklee]

Let's pull in the dialogue a notch please. If I didn't know better I'd think that some of the overheated accusations and insults were an intentional effort to get this post locked. Let's continiue to examine the place of non-Chinese in the Chinese martial arts.

[shalabaji]

so,


previously said "Getting back on topic, before a discussion about what is "typical" or "atypical" behaviour / practice of a master is started, surely these terms should be clearly defined so that no-one gets caught up talking in circles (as it seems many people here do very often). So, to continue the topic (WHICH SHOULD BE IN THE MANTIS FORUMN - slap on the hand for BTL), can anyone offer a concise definition of these terms, in an objective non-juvenile manner (I guess that excludes Shirkers then)."

can anyone comment on this? I'm still waiting (and starting to wonder if anyone here, apart frm redfish who seems to actually tackle what others have said and not skirt around the issue, has anything to say about definitions first, then debate second)...

[shirkers1]

Answeres to the million $ questions!!!! All gather round now cause it's a doozy...

No I didn't receive any emails from any one on what you said. I don't think any really cares. It wasn't funny.

As for the pedophile comment. I was molested as a child so I think I have every right to talk about that issue since I have first hand knowledge of it... The comment made was "sounds like something a pedophile would say". Do I think you are one? No.. did I actually call you one? No. So get off of your high horse cheif. You throw a dig at me I'm throwing one back. You go ahead and PM me if you like, or we can talk about this issue in person if you like as well. Balls in your court.

The wu tang question: Yeah I thought that was a winner too. See I guess I'm still too witty for ya. Your assumption was that I knew your joke because wu tang said it. I don't listen to wu tang, I don't have kids. So both of those jokes I didn't get until you told me what you meant...... Even then I understood it, just thought it wasn't funny. Just like you don't think I'm funny..... It's as simple as that rumsfeld. I was being sarcastic hense the rolling eyes, I'm not a split personality.

On a final note, I'm not trying to be cool. I'm reacting to YOUR comments. I'm sitting here laughing while you seem to be buggered. So this coke's for you cheers...

[shirkers1]

In closing, since I've become what I hate on these boards. That being someone who takes over a thread because someone has started to banter with me. I won't respond to you on this post. You have something else to say then pm me or email me chief.


So I wonder if the rumor is true. I have pm's from others saying that you are actually mr pel or one of his students? Could this be true?

[BeiTangLang]

So, to continue the topic (WHICH SHOULD BE IN THE MANTIS FORUMN - slap on the hand for BTL),

By his own admission:

A few of you almost completely misread my initial post. I could have replaced the name of "Master" Kai Uwe Pel with that of "Master" Paulie Zink, and the main point would've been the same. ),

I fully stand by my call.
(GO slap yourself! (in my best James Brown voice ) )

~BTL

[shalabaji]

BTL -

was the topic moved before or after lamakwoklee made that comment? Enlighten me, then justify moving it if it was before (just for information's sake, I'd be interested if no one else is).

Shirkers - blah blah blah

anyone else that's paying attention to this topic, see previous posts and please try and answer the question at hand (that include you BTL)

- definitions, definitions, definitions - I still have no idea about what a TYPICAL master vs. an A-TYPICAL master is. I know I'd hate it if I was categoriesed as TYPICAL for a in public for a notion which has not been clearly stated

PS:

[BeiTangLang]

BTL -

was the topic moved before or after lamakwoklee made that comment? Enlighten me, then justify moving it if it was before (just for information's sake, I'd be interested if no one else is).

Shirkers - blah blah blah

anyone else that's paying attention to this topic, see previous posts and please try and answer the question at hand (that include you BTL)

- definitions, definitions, definitions - I still have no idea about what a TYPICAL master vs. an A-TYPICAL master is. I know I'd hate it if I was categoriesed as TYPICAL for a in public for a notion which has not been clearly stated

PS:

How dense are you? I actually read the first post for its content ala "A few of you almost completely misread my initial post"......Get it yet?

Here's a hint; I read the post & saw that it was a general post about "Westerners" in general with Pel just listed as an example of how people shouild not treat others in the kung fu community. I saw that it could have been an "insert name here" kind of post. Pel was just one that he thought of to use as a, what I'm guessing he thinks, is a poor example of how students should treat their sifu over & over again.

I also knew that this would end up being a troll thread (which it has) of bouncing alternate user id's of people who deleted their posts & quit the (mantis) forum at an earlier date. History can only be erased if it does not repeat itself. That will never happen with people without the capability to learn from experience.
(Yeah, to most this paragraph will make no sense, but then, neither do the people it was aimed at)

Alas, I still stick with why I moved this thread here & the "Go slap yourself" (In my best James Brown voice).

I won't be back here, so if you feel like taking this further, pm me.
~BTL

[Redfish]

My questions have been answered, here are my questions and then the answers from Shirkers latest post.

.
"See in order for a joke to be funny everyone has to get it. So when you throw out some weak shiat like that it's hard for any one to think it's funny or see it as a joke."

I'm not sure who you mean by everyone? Do you mean that becuase you didn't understand, then it goes that no one did either? Do you mean that if you don't know something then no else must know it either? Please clarify. Did you receive E-mails from 'everyone' also confirming that they didn't get it?

And the answer from Shirkers: "No I didn't receive any emails from any one on what you said. It wasn't funny."

" I asked because that sounded like something a pedophile would say… and it concerned me that I was having a conversation with a sick person"

Could you please explain what a pedophile usually sounds like? And how you would know?

And the answer from Shirkers: "As for the pedophile comment. I was molested as a child so I think I have every right to talk about that issue since I have first hand knowledge of it... The comment made was "sounds like something a pedophile would say". Do I think you are one? No.. did I actually call you one? No. So get off of your high horse cheif. "

"Or maybe it’s because I don’t have 14 kids and listen to Wu Tang Clan. I guess we’ll never know. Wow who is the labeling people now? Not all Americans have 12 illegitimate kids and listen to rap.
"

This is your best one. I said that I heard the joke used myself on a Wutang CD and therefor the company Fisher Price must be known in the USA - they are American and they said the name of the company. I never mentioned anything about people who listen to rap having 14 kids. In fact, the first place it's mentioned is in the first sentence of your quote above.

So please clarify the above quote ..do you really mean to say that particular stereotype yourself, then ask me why I said it in the same breath? Do you have a split personality?

And the answer from Shirkers: "The wu tang question: Yeah I thought that was a winner too. See I guess I'm still too witty for ya. "


So, I think we've run out of steam here. Well I have. It's all in the above post.

"See I guess I'm still too witty for ya. "

[shirkers1]

thanks for rehashing the same garbage, could have pm'd me like I did you instead of repeating the same thing over and over. The names change but the actions stay the same, welcome back.

[Three Harmonies]

So when is Rdfish going ot share who he actually is????
Money down that he is a student of Pels!
Cerebrus,
You have made the most sense, and I agree with all you have said. Integrity is a commodity that is dwindling in todays world.
Jake

[Mika]

Someone asked what about masters that mistreat their students unfairly?

Of course it's happened to me from several teachers.
You just take your wounds and walk quietly away when it is time and never say anything in public.
To turn on your teacher is to turn on yourself.
Your teacher is always family.
You disgrace your teacher you disgrace yourself.
Even a dog does not soil its own house.
Loyalty is more than just chinese culture, there are practical reasons for it in practice and in long term history.

I am talking about the task at hand, in other words, people in general. I am NOT referring to any persons mentioned in this or any other threads. I want to be absolutely clear about this.

And that is what this thread was intended for, if I am not mistaken.

I see your point, Wolfen, and for the most part, I agree. However, if the teacher has betrayed you and everyone else, wouldn't you be doing a disservice to others for not warning them? If you know a teacher is teaching for all or many of the wrong reasons, shouldn't you help others not to fall victim to all that?

Or the very least, if you are asked about it, shouldn't you be honest and share your stories?

Now, it is true, though, that making these decisions - whether to speak up or not - can be tough. There is always room for some interpretation; is this just your opinion that no one else shares, and if so, is it because you were in a situation no one else was in and thus you cannot compare your situation to that of others? Or is it that the others are still blinded by the light and therefore cannot give the same testimony? Or is it that you just misinterpreted everything and might ruin a man's reputation for no good reason?

Well, if you are a grown, sensible man, the above questions and others that should arise, are easy to answer. But before taking any action - or deciding not to take any action - they should be addressed. And by action I mean speaking up (not a challenge or anything else like that).

After all, the worst kind of manipulation and brainwashing I have witnessed has taken place in our beloved field of martial arts. This topic is a valid one. Seeing those mislead, religous zealots who abandon their friends because these friends don't study the same martial art anymore is a sad matter. And I am talking about men in their thirties...

So, to speak up or not, it depends on the situation. There clearly are situations where staying in the shadows doing nothing enables the abuse to continue. And by the same token, acting in haste can harm an innocent man's image.

Hold your temper, but once you have made a decision, be bold enough to carry it out!

Cheers

Mika