Wooden Dummy

[martyg]

If the arms are not level and at the correct height ,in relation to who is using it, then it becomes just another method of banging arms into for no apparent reason other than practicing applications. The dummy is for far more than that.........or at least it is within my system.

GH

So in your system everyone they fight against is the same exact height and build as themselves? What's this crazy mirror image world called? Have to visit there sometime...

[YouKnowWho]

when you fight, you always have one arm higher than the other. The higher arm protech your head, the lower arm protect your body. It makes no sense to train level arms IMO. I had a custom made wooden dummy. I assumed my dummy was a right hand person so I made his right arm higher than his left arm on purpose.

[k gledhill]

So in your system everyone they fight against is the same exact height and build as themselves? What's this crazy mirror image world called? Have to visit there sometime...

The dummy isnt a 'person' , the height can be adjusted to suit the 'vt students' elbow height, but not to replicate a taller or shorter person for applicationitis.

If the opponent is taller we still have been developing strong low elbow, hip unity, so reaching wont be a detriment to us for the odd taller opponent. Compared to ALWAYS delivering over-extended relatively weaker 'levers', without the development a lower dummy would have furthered...follow ?

We use the dummy to maintain elbow development taught previously in SLT, Dan Chi-Sao, etc..., ging shock force symmetry, hip elbow unity , power points to focus strike alignment while facing and cycling attack defense as SLT teaches, along with shifting, body mass momentum in unison with the above for maxing out our force generation .

Tall fighters / opponents, crouch too....we have tall students too, we dont have height issues with them or adjust the dummy to 'pretend its them' .

As a possible reason for the dummy being raised :
Many VT students adopt high arms because they are too far away from each other and feel that the arms arent getting the fists out of their face doing bong sao for example.
So the student re-enforces their idea that their arms need to be held up to function as 'blocks'. Tan sao goes up, wu sao goes up etc...dummy goes up... Furthering the idea that the dummy now needs to be raised to replicate the idea...you end up with elbows that dont function in simultaneous strike defense because they are so high up they cant utilize forearms or the body unity offered by low strongly positioned fixed elbows.

[k gledhill]

when you fight, your "major" arm is always higher that your "minor" arm. It makes no sense to train level arms IMO.

everything in the system is trained level... ?major , minor ?...in VT EACH arm is equal, thats the whole point of chi-sao, ambidextrous ability. Facing requires this. does an opponent have one shoulder higher than the other ? do you have to use a different dummy for 'lefty's' ?...stand behind it and swap the arms out ?

We use the dummy to further this development. The arms arent a person trying to strangle you. You dont jump sideways before going back at the guy from the flank as they stay rigid ...

I have a Koo Sang Dummy, occasionally from wear and tear an arm rotates in the dummy body creating a high low arm. The section squared and offset on the arms has no reference point so if you didnt know about level arms, you would assume its normal to have a high arm and a low arm.
If it wasnt so important why would Koo Sang make labor intensive offset arm tennons {?} sections so they would be level as the holes X'ed through the dummy. It would be easier to simply have two offset arm holes with symmetrical inserts. Instead he made the slots level and saw that two arms inserted needed to X over each other inside the dummy body. One arms tennon is low the other high outside the arms are even height...

[martyg]

The dummy isnt a 'person' , the height can be adjusted to suit the 'vt students' elbow height, but not to replicate a taller or shorter person for applicationitis.

LOL, says you again Kevin. I've interacted with enough other sifu across the board to know that there are plenty who a) Actually view it as representing the different aspects of a person and b) Use various height dummies with the very explanation that the height shouldn't matter for precisely the reason of applying it against various heights of people. And some of these people have been ones with more years than you and I put together.

If the opponent is taller we still have been developing strong low elbow, hip unity, so reaching wont be a detriment to us for the odd taller opponent.

Reaching was never the issue, learning to adjust structure to various angles, heights, etc. of different size opponents is. The dummy in that situation allows us to work on those things when we don't have the luxury of a live person.

We use the dummy to maintain elbow development taught previously in SLT, Dan Chi-Sao, etc..., ging shock force symmetry, hip elbow unity , power points to focus strike alignment while facing and cycling attack defense as SLT teaches, along with shifting, body mass momentum in unison with the above for maxing out our force generation .

We as in you Kevin. We (as in me and my students) use it for it's mass, and what it provides as feedback for body unity in motion. The arms really become irrelevant after a while because it's all just imaginary alignment to a dead object.

Tall fighters / opponents, crouch too....we have tall students too, we dont have height issues with them or adjust the dummy to 'pretend its them' .

As a possible reason for the dummy being raised :
Many VT students adopt high arms because they are too far away from each other and feel that the arms arent getting the fists out of their face doing bong sao for example.

There's only too high what's currently occurring. I.E, the current interaction and kiu decides how your arms need to be aligned, not a static pre-posture.

So the student re-enforces their idea that their arms need to be held up to function as 'blocks'. Tan sao goes up, wu sao goes up etc...dummy goes up...

As it should if the opponent is taller, shorter, etc. etc. Unless your engine relies on a specific static position that always constitutes what a certain "technique" has to function around. Some engines do, which there's nothing wrong with - it's just again not an across the board deal.

Furthering the idea that the dummy now needs to be raised to replicate the idea...you end up with elbows that dont function in simultaneous strike defense because they are so high up they cant utilize forearms or the body unity offered by low strongly positioned fixed elbows.

Unless your idea of linkage has nothing to do with static elbow positions but rather a structure (from the toes to the tips of the fingers) that constantly changes with the incoming force vectors. I.E. the application decides structure, not a predefined posture that you jam in.

[k gledhill]

LOL, says you again Kevin. I've interacted with enough other sifu across the board to know that there are plenty who a) Actually view it as representing the different aspects of a person and b) Use various height dummies with the very explanation that the height shouldn't matter for precisely the reason of applying it against various heights of people. And some of these people have been ones with more years than you and I put together.



Reaching was never the issue, learning to adjust structure to various angles, heights, etc. of different size opponents is. The dummy in that situation allows us to work on those things when we don't have the luxury of a live person.




We as in you Kevin. We (as in me and my students) use it for it's mass, and what it provides as feedback for body unity in motion. The arms really become irrelevant after a while because it's all just imaginary alignment to a dead object.

Tall fighters / opponents, crouch too....we have tall students too, we dont have height issues with them or adjust the dummy to 'pretend its them' .



There's only too high what's currently occurring. I.E, the current interaction and kiu decides how your arms need to be aligned, not a static pre-posture.




As it should if the opponent is taller, shorter, etc. etc. Unless your engine relies on a specific static position that always constitutes what a certain "technique" has to function around. Some engines do, which there's nothing wrong with - it's just again not an across the board deal.




Unless your idea of linkage has nothing to do with static elbow positions but rather a structure (from the toes to the tips of the fingers) that constantly changes with the incoming force vectors. I.E. the application decides structure, not a predefined posture that you jam in.

They may have more years Marty but its no guarantee they know what they are talking about....Anyway, not trying to convince your 'set in my ways ' mind....you play big guy, small guy, have fun. Whats that low arm meant to be then "a happy to see you" opponent ?

An important thing to remember is that there are 2 imaginary dummys either side we cant see but aim our centers at as we face and chase them. IOW we aim tan at an imaginary dummy as we cycle through high jum strike low gaun sao, to tan strike , bong on the lower arm..the tan is a strike to this alignment....iow we arent turning away from the main body with a Kwan Sao then turn back to reface after that....thats chi-sao game stuff. When we turn into reface the dummy with tan or jum its because theres no dummy to keep going after so we go back to the dummy core with arms for focus points to ging on.
tan energy goes forwards along the centerline at this target, while the low bong trains displacing 'ging force laterally across the centerline. This is the common vector unity in all attacking ...straight line-sweeping strikes, coupled with lateral force to 'clear' the line with short sharp, ging ballistic force....

tan's expanding elbows and jum's contracting elbows get a ging workout with striking alignment combined on the dumm, iow each arm becomes 2 hands using elbows/forearms as the second set .... forearms for jut get ging, pak...ging. with arms that are constantly cycling into new attacks with those attacks becoming defensive recycles...


The axis line of the dummy is fixed, rigid , it cant be turned. Our aim is to turn our opponents from facing us , using their axis line and overextended levers/wrists to achieve this ....if we train to use ballistic force on a rigid fixed object like the dummy the 'human' becomes easy by comparison to spin on the axis, move off balance with po-pai etc...strike with tan/jum etc...

If in training we meet rigidity in arms we try to make the students go soft so they cant be turned and lose jiu ying on us as we fight. If they do use rigid arms over extended at us our dummy training kicks in and we can still strike with alignment to displace their levers simultaneously as we turn , attack and dominate them...well thats what we try to do anyway. In a violent blast of close compact energy exchange, we control our energy with little or no thought to alignment timing distance, ging etc...


by your logic should we train the SLT, CK, etc..with arms held high up for taller guys and do it lower than usual for shorter guys like the different dummy heights ?

[k gledhill]

Some blueprints of dummy design we use with 'upper arms' shown offset so they sit level ...

[LoneTiger108]

There must be a good reason why they are so different like you said ? it ' s just that you need to find out why ?

I think it would be great to have a 'concrete answer' for level top arms or not, but looking through the responses it is quite clear that people have their own ideas

when you fight, you always have one arm higher than the other. The higher arm protech your head, the lower arm protect your body. It makes no sense to train level arms IMO. I had a custom made wooden dummy. I assumed my dummy was a right hand person so I made his right arm higher than his left arm on purpose.

Probably the most comprehensive reasoning for the higher right arm imho

[sanjuro_ronin]

when you fight, you always have one arm higher than the other. The higher arm protech your head, the lower arm protect your body. It makes no sense to train level arms IMO. I had a custom made wooden dummy. I assumed my dummy was a right hand person so I made his right arm higher than his left arm on purpose.

Southpaws must have a field day with you John, LOL !


The wooden dummy does not simulate attacks, it can't since it doesn't move ie: attack.

It "simulates" a "shape" that you will be seeing.

If a person choose to have the right higher or the left higher or both level or even alternate during training, they are presenting themselves with different "shapes" to solve.
That's all.

[YouKnowWho]

The wooden dummy does not simulate attacks,

It may not simulate your opponent's attack but it can simulate your own attack. If you use tan sau to push your opponent's leading higher arm higher, and use your bong sau to push your opponent's back lower arm lower, your opponent's center will be wide open for you to enter.

The guy that you have to fight may not be your WC guy. Boxers use level arms because they don't have to worry about kick.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...ed=0CDMQ9QEwBA

TCMA guys always use one arm high and one arm low fighting stance.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...1t:429,r:2,s:0

[sanjuro_ronin]

It may not simulate your opponent's attack but it can simulate your own attack. If you use tan sau to push your opponent's leading higher arm higher, and use your bong sau to push your opponent's back lower arm lower, you can enter right into his center.

The guy that you have to fight may not be your WC guy. Boxers use level arms because they don't have to worry about kick.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...ed=0CDMQ9QEwBA

TCMA guys always use one arm high and one arm low fighting stance.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...1t:429,r:2,s:0

People use whatever hand position that prefer, I don't think the "rule set" maters that much to be honest.
Most Thai boxers use the boxer guard with a slight modification, as do MMA guys that have to deal with ALL types of attacks.

[LoneTiger108]

Most Thai boxers use the boxer guard with a slight modification, as do MMA guys that have to deal with ALL types of attacks.

It interests me that the guard that most MMA/Thai/Boxers actually use is learnt via looksau in the Lee Shing Family. Looksau is a defensive interaction exercise, from my own training experience, and deals almost exclusively with the guard.

So on reflection, Wing Chun also guards against ALL types of attacks! That is, if you practice looksau correctly imho

[sanjuro_ronin]

It interests me that the guard that most MMA/Thai/Boxers actually use is learnt via looksau in the Lee Shing Family. Looksau is a defensive interaction exercise, from my own training experience, and deals almost exclusively with the guard.

So on reflection, Wing Chun also guards against ALL types of attacks! That is, if you practice looksau correctly imho

Whatever guard you use, as long as you can use it, as a good guard.
Whatever shape it takes is personal.

That said and in regards to the wooden dummy, if the dummy is used to test and correct one structure then how is doing the dummy in a "less than forceful" way doing that?
When we hit, when we press, when we exert any force onto something, we get the equal amount back and it our structure that allows us to "deal" with that "rebound/recoil" of force.
The more you put out the more you get back the more structurlally sound you have to be.
This isn't opinion, this is basic biomechanics.
So, if one is NOT forceful ( in a controlled manner of course) on the dummy, what structure is one testing or correcting at all ??

[bennyvt]

soiunds right to me ronin.

[Phil Redmond]

ALL versions of WC do their forms to cover the same points/gates in space on both sides. You don't do a right tan lower or higher than the left one. It's that simple. Also, if you're doing YMWCK then the arms are level. That's according to the plans YM had.