Wing Chun is incomplete?

[Raatra]

I have heard that wing chun is an incomplete style in that it focuses mainly on in-close upper body techniques and lacks long range and ground fighting ability. is this true? i would appreciate it if the responses dont get too heated with opinions. i am interested in plain, simple facts backed by experience.

[Braden]

Nothing is complete. If you take any style you will be able to find something that other styles have that it does not.

But in another sense, no good style is incomplete. Any good style should contain principles which the practitioner can elaborate to other situations, and contain ways within it's own techniques to defeat those outside techniques or control the fight to prevent it from coming there.

[Raatra]

great Braden, now relate what you said to wing chun. the question wasnt about the definition af a complete/incomplete style. in the post i stated what i meant by incomplete and would like to know if what i said wing chun may lack is in fact true. i understand that a principle found within a style can be applied in an infinite number of situations but generally a 'complete' style has a definite theory for each of the ranges of combat: close/long/ground/weapons.
broken down even further you could say striking with the upper body, striking with the lower body, grappling, locking (chin na), some form of vital point/internal knowledge, and the use of weapons among others. i respect wing chun, i am not in any way meaning to call it faulty. i simply wish to know if it lacks detail in any of the areas mentioned above. thanks

[Mark]

In reply to your first Statment to whether Wing Chun is an Incomplete style and that it lacks in long range etc is False. Yes Wing Chun is primaly a Close fighting range style. The Nature of Fighting is in close range, I have Expereinced this and im sure many people would agree too. Fighting is not a spar or a point scoring match its ugly, brutal and yess close range. Thats why Wing chun is Close range its because its a Comabat Style and thus upper body and hand techniques play a vital role. Wing Chun still has long range priniples though but what are you classing as Long range??
Wing Chun works on a theory that your opponent is bigger, heavier and stronger which is what you should expect. Wing Chun is Designed for the light weight so that ground fighting would be hard for them. Wing chun does work on the Ground. We dont Grapple but we can fight on the ground. Good Wing Chun focuses heavily on footwork. Stepping is a big part of the Syllabus, and that stepping could be enterpreted as a means of long range approaches. The Pole form is Based on long Range for example.
I hope I have tried to answer the questions without Blaberying to much. No Its Incomplete and yes Wing chun Caters for all types of ranges and situaions.

[Raatra]

can you give examples of groundfighting found in wing chun? i dont intend to sound annoying. i am just interested in specifics.

[Sihing73]

Hi Raatra,

The answers given so far are pretty accurate. Every system can claim to be complete yet all will have areas/ranges which they favor and thus they are more prepared for. It was not uncommon in the past for students to learn from a master and then be sent to another to train another aspect of fighting/combat.

Now to answer the question as to whether Wing Chun is a complete art I would have to say yes, as much as any art is comlete. The reason I say this is that, more than the techniques, the concepts can be applied to any range. Wing Chun does have long range techniques as well as Chin Na and Anti-Chin Na, and of course the close range and grappling methods. When it comes to ground fighting there are concepts which one would apply on the ground such as centerline and owuld allow the carry over of some techniques. Still, to be realistic, these ground techniques are not designed for fighting the ground game. In other words would I try to use Wing Chun against a BJJ stylist on the ground, probably not. Are there things I could do against him, yes. However, you lose something when you chose to fight your opponenets game. I would not try to box a boxer nor wrestle a wrestler. This does not mean I oculd not beat them just that I would prefer to utilize the strengths of my art against the "percieved" weaknesses of thiers. In a groundfighting situation there are many grabbing and pressure point attacks which are not allowed in competition. I have shown that I can attack and grab various points on my opponent, and if I can't end the fight with these can often get it back to my preferred area, standing [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] Does this mean I am some great Wing Chun guy, no! It simply means that I have had the opportunity to study with some higher level people who have shown me some things. My mind is still trying to grasp many more.

Wing Chun does indeed utilize a great deal of footwork. It also trains sensitivity a great deal. The goal is to be able to prevent going ot the ground. If you are taken down the goal is to break and regain your feet. Again, why fight my opponenets fight. I have had a number of street encounters and Wing Chu has served me well. Still, I am sure that any art I trained in would serve me just as well, if I practiced it.

Bottom line is that you will fight as you train. If you want to fight on the ground then that is how you must train. It does not matter if you art has groundfighting or not, if you do not practice it you will not be able to use it. You could train Judo and just emphasize throws and be inadequate when it comes ot groundwork. This would illustrate not a shortcoming of your art but of the artist. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

This post is already long enough but suffice it to say there is plenty of CHin Na/Kum Sau to be found in Wing Chun. Again, I think the key to being able to apply any of this is the sensitivity one gains from Chi Sau and like exercises.

Peace,

Dave

[Buhma]

Great posts Mark and Sihing73.. I very much agree... but I don't understand the long range/close range arguments.... To me, if you are able to hit a person... that is close range. Long range to me is striking from a distance... like with a weapon (gun). I don't see a difference between long and short range in hand-to-hand. If you are close enough to do damage, you are in close range. Symantics I suppose.

Also, I have found WC throws to be very effective. Of course I rely heavily on footwork more than structure.... but I'm still learning [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Hmmm... as I haven't been really been exposed to WC groundwork, I'm not too sure about it. Usually, if I hit the ground, I revert to wrestling (ground and pound)-- in that WC helps greatly... other than that, I wish to learn some more submissions... not to apply it, to escape from it... I know escapes from summisions are there in WC...I just can't apply it yet....

[Sharky]

there is a serious lack a kicking and ground work in wc, therefore it's incomplete

let alone the fact that there aren't any really *powerful* strikes...

Edd

[Buhma]

Funny... I seem to kick alot [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] Are you talking about those flying dragon colored tiger kicks? No WC doesn't have those.

Ground work? hmmm good point... then again we can't have everything. Although I love to throw people all the time... I still don't consider that groundwork...

[jojitsu27]

Mark,
You said>>>The Nature of Fighting is in close range

Your absolutley right! In fact the nature of the majority of fights is soooo close range it is called "Groundfighting"!
This is the problem I have found with most traditional Wing Chun....it lacks decent groundfighting. But I am currently trying to look into a Wing Chun family in Texas who says they have their own Wing Chun groundfighting techniques that can compete with Brazilian Jujitsu.
I will let you guys all know when I get a chance to check this school out.
BTW - Sandman, are you out there?
I e-mailed your Sifu, asking him if I could check his school out, as I was interested in the groundfighting, and he hasn't responded yet! Tell him to quite playing hard to get!
-jojitsu27

[OdderMensch]

jojitsu27- Sifu is in China right now, as is sandman. They get back tonight but it will likely be several days or recover before he gets to email. I train with sandman.

Raatra- ok here is a wing chun technique and how it applys to a groundfighting situation.
(please note i have practiced this, and have used it in a "friendly match" but never against a ****ed off grapler)

ok the "yee-chi-kee-min-yaa" stance has (at our school) both feet at a 45 degree angle, knees pulling in to create abduction & stability. relax one side and you get "chwen-ma(mispelled i am sure)" or stance turning. let this go ****her than it normaly would and you get the "qui-sut" motion. now all of my wieght is being put down one one knee that i am driving into the ground. stick a falling or recenty fallen opontant beneath that knee and you get what we refer to as the wing chun mounted position. this is gone into more detail my sifu's "anti grapler series"

sharky-
Dim gerk
Wong Gerk
Ti Gerk
Fung Gerk
and the Moi Ing Gerk/Chi Gerk/Chor Gerk Theroys
How much kicking do i need?

[Sihing73]

Sharky,

As to there being a lack of kicking in Wing Chun I would refer you to the following link. http://fs.dai.net/ac/722920/E01.html...ngchunkuen.com
For some reason the link does not take you directly to the article. Go to "FEATURES" and you will see one entitled the DEVASTING KICKS OF SUM NUM WING CHUN KUEN This is an article giving a brief overview of the Kicks on Sum Num Wing Chun. As to there not being any "powerful" strikes or a lack thereof: where were you when I was getting hit by my seniors? They sure seemed to pack a wallop to me [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Jo Jitsu,

I would tend to disagree that most fights end up as some form of groundfighting. I may be just lucky but the majority of my fights have taken place standing up, with the exception of the loser going to the ground [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] Not saying groundfighting is not a valuable asset but it is dangerous to get tunnell vision and concentrate too much on one aspect of fighting.

Buhma,

I tend to go along with you definintion of range. My opponent is unable to harm me unless he can reach me. Once a bridge is established the range is "close". Still, I understand that many like ot break it down into: Long Range/Kicking and perhaps weapons, Trapping Range, Close Range and Grappling range. I may not have them labeled correctly but I think that is pretty standard across the board. It is nice to break the ranges up as the techniques you utilize will differ depending on your position relative to the opponent.

Peace,

Dave


[This message has been edited by Sihing73 (edited 08-04-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Sihing73 (edited 08-04-2000).]

[ying jow]

I love ground grappling but you must remember it is more sport related. It is alot of fun but if you are not interested in competing there are other things you can do on the ground beside submissions. Wing Chun uses these types of alternatives as do most kung fu systems.

At various points during the day and at various locations check around you to see if ground grappling would even be possible at that given time. My experience is that there is normally a clinch(great for wing chun) and then people tend to be pushed into a wall, table, car, other people and sometimes the ground but not all the time.

I do kung fu and grappling and I will tell you for a fact that in a challenge match in an open area it is very difficult to beat a grappler, but when you are in a crowded bar, restroom, subway, bus, etc. it is not always possible to get the positioning required for submissions on the ground.

[Sharky]

come on lads, any puch would hurt, but i mean the kind of strength that comes from a good boxer

are you saying that wing chun has the most powerful punching?

and kicking, well fair enough, but it's hardly the best kicking style is it? what i mean by this, is that it doesn't always fulfil the kicking potential of a person.

are you saying wing chun has the best kicking?

the answers to those two quesitons, in my belief, is 'no' (i study wc btw) and thus making it incomplete. i'm not saying that any other style out there is complete...

ok, i'm talking rubbish now, when i'm annoyed with stuff (non kf) i can't write properly [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif[/img]

Edd

[Gojira]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Yip Man tailor down Wing Chun down to its most basic moves?
He supposedly made it more efficent but the original style was much more than what he taught.


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