Wing Chun is incomplete?

[Sharky]

nice site! i've been looking for a new wing site to look at....

by the by, by saying that it's incomplete, it's not bad or anything....

Edd

[Sihing73]

Hi Sharky,

Okay, I can see where you are coming from, at least I thin I can [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

I would tend to agree that Boxers, on an average, tend to be harder hitters. At least in the early stages of training. Still, when I think of some of the more advanced people out there I think there is quite a bit of power to be found in Kung Fu in general.

Does Wing Chun have the best kicking? Depends on what you conisder best adn for what circumstances. For the street where fast, low kicks which allow you toretain your balance, I would tend to go along with Wing Chun kicking. Still, there are those that can make other kicking methods work better for them.

Listen, lets keep in mind that Wing Chun was designed to be a stripped down efficient and quickly learned style. What I mean by stripped down is that the goal was to simply rather than complicate learning. It was designed to be able to be learned by the average person quickly and be very very effective. I think it serves its purpose quite well. We could argue that Wing Chun is incomplete but the bottom line is it is all what you chose to emphasize. Take a look at Alan Labm and see how he incorporates Chin na directly into the Chi Sau and then tell me Wing Chun has no grappling/locking techniques. As to the ground game, well I tend to think that in a real fight going to the ground is a last resort. I am not impervious to being taken down but once there my goal is to escape and regain my feet. I find this to be good sense, particularily when more than one opponent is involved. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] Are there other arts that are superior when it comes to groundfighting? I would hope so, especially is that is their forte. If I wanted to learn to kick well I would take a style that spent a lot of time kicking. Since I wanted to be able to learn something quickly which would directly translate to combat I chose Wing Chun. In all my years, and some rather nasty encounters it has served me well.

Peace,

Dave

[Buhma]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sharky:
come on lads, any puch would hurt, but i mean the kind of strength that comes from a good boxer
[/quote]

Didn't we discuss this already in another thread? About boxing strikes and WC strikes?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>are you saying that wing chun has the most powerful punching?
[/quote]

No, it depends on the person, but the roots to powerful punching is there.. in the rooting, like all Kung Fu styles as well as boxing, Muy Thai etc....

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
and kicking, well fair enough, but it's hardly the best kicking style is it? what i mean by this, is that it doesn't always fulfil the kicking potential of a person.
[/quote]

What do you mean by this? Personally I like Tae Kwon Do type kicks... for show and tournaments... but not very effective for real. How do you define kicking potential?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
are you saying wing chun has the best kicking?
[/quote]

See my reply above about punching... replace punching with kicking... the power all depends on rooting and how much you are willing to commit the kick (ala Thai style)
Also, my Sifu has gone up against professional Thai boxers for "freindly" matches... he loves to bang shins just as much as any thai fighter... guess from kicking the Muk Jong for soooo long.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
the answers to those two quesitons, in my belief, is 'no' (i study wc btw) and thus making it incomplete. i'm not saying that any other style out there is complete...

ok, i'm talking rubbish now, when i'm annoyed with stuff (non kf) i can't write properly [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif[/img]

Edd[/quote]

Sorry that somethings bugging you in real life... hope it gets better.

I guess it all does boil down to each individual and what he/she gets out of each art. Personally I don't think WC is incomplete, it probably is lacking in certain respects because the student of WC hasn't seen all the applications of the art yet...

I know I haven't found out everything about it yet.. for instance, we never really trained throws...but one day it just dawned on me that it's there, and I started to use it easily. I took Akido to supplement my WC, but all it did was give me more of an appreciation of WC. I plan on taking some BJJ to supplement my groundwork, but that doesn't mean WC is lacking... just that I'm lazy and want something quicker... since BJJ focuses the ground more, it's a short cut for me.... c'mon people, I'm not a professional fighter, I need to be up and running as quick as possible... hence WC and BJJ [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[benny]

good post and great replys. what is "kicking potenial" as long as it works who cares. sure people can kick each other in the head but in that time i could have hit you three or four times. and i know lots of boxers and we hit just as hard and also at shorter range,ie i can step forward on a boxer and the punch loses most of the power but if your elbow is behind the punch and you acelerate into the punch its nearly as hard at the start as the end. and most styles only practice kicks above the waist in training as if you can kick good at the head your lower kicks are great. thats why most newer style kf dont kick to the head. we kick to the head, its called a stomp when they try to get up after we knock them down
see ya


[This message has been edited by benny (edited 08-04-2000).]

[Sharky]

so in you opinion, wing chun is the best style for learning to kick effectively?

Edd

[El_CLap]

Umm...wing chun is one of the best arts (in my opinion) to learn how to FIGHT effectively. You don't NEED fancy high kicks to win fights. The kicks I've learned in Wing Chun have sufficed so far, so i'd say so far it's been pretty complete for me.

[Mark]

Dear Raatra-
Sorry I am only a beginner of the style, So I dont feel the wright to speak on behalf of the system. But...
Wing Chun Dosent have any "Specific" technniques used in Specific circumstances. There arnt any specific examples I dont think that do apply to ground fighting nor to the rest of the style. Wing Chuns Centre line theory still applies when you are caught on the ground. The wing chun punch still works and so do all the blocks. I think we can use it but thats not the point of it. You are a far greater threat on your feet then what you are on the ground I think you are a lot stronger and better of on your feet in the first place anyway. Wing Chun can be applied on the ground but not as a means of literally fighting on the ground but only used from getting hit to the ground to getting up from the ground.

[Sharky]

i can't believe this...

Edd

[Mark]

What Cant you Believe????

[Sharky]

Mark, everything you said was correct, i wasn't "not beleiving" anything in your postt

Edd

[jojitsu27]

Mark,
>>>Wing Chuns Centre line theory still applies when you are caught on the ground

That's where you are oh so wrong my friend.
Here is some advice. Take what little Wing Chun you know now and go find someone who grapples or does sometype of MMA or groundfighting style like BJJ.
Ask to spar with them. When you get taken to the ground and get mounted, see what happens if you stick to centerline. It's called an armbar and it hurts like hell if you don't tap.
Unfortunaly many Wing Chun theories and techniques are thrown out when it comes to groundfighting, because Wing Chun was made for standing.
Now, Wing Chun sensitivity and Chi Sau ability is very, very helpful on the ground, but groundfighting is about positioning, and I haven't found any Wing Chun systems that address that range of combat.....yet!
What good does your Wing Chun do when the guy has the full mount on you and you don't have range on his face?
What about if he had your back and you are in a rear naked choke?
What if he moves in and clinches with you and throws you...do you know how to land properly?
What if you are on top in the other guys guard and you decide to start striking on his centerline......you know what will happen?
Striking on his centerline is exactly what the other guy would want you to do in that situation, and thus he would throw his legs up and execute an armbar or triangle choke when you extend your elbows and strike towards his centerline...........that is just one of many examples of how trying to translate standing Wing Chun will just get your ass kicked on the ground.
A Wing chun guy will naturally think "Oh, I'll just strike on centerline in this situation" and fall into the grapplers trap. What the Wing Chun guy should be doing to be safe in the grapplers guard position is keep his elbows at his side and arms in (as opposed to trying to maintain center), keep control of the guys lower body by grabbing his belt or pants above his crotch, guard his neck for choke attempts, and be going for an escape from the mount into side control (a position totally against Wing Chun principle since you are no longer "facing" your opponent).

Mark, I don't mean to be rude, but groundfighting has evolved way beyond what most Kung Fu styles have. It has become a specialized form of fighting and has rules and theories and principles all unto its own, that have nothing to do with and don't translate to stand up fighting.
Take it from an experienced fighter who has been doing Wing Chun for 10 years, keep your Wing Chun standing where it belongs, and when it comes to groundfighting look into a technical groundfighting only style like brazilian jujitsu, Catch-as-Catch-Can wrestling, japanese submission wrestling, or Russian Sambo.
It's easy to think, "oh, I'll just punch a grappler if he tries to throw me", but what most Wing Chun guys forget and don't realize before its too late is that grapplers want to be in close range also (for a throw or takedown which will be lightening fast since it is all they practice). So the Wing Chun guy comes in for close range striking and thus does the grapplers work for him by shortening the distance needed for the takedown. Trapping range is perfect for a clinch and throw.
I guess what I am trying to tell you Mark, is that unless you are 100% sure that you can KNOCK OUT a man in the split second that it takes a grappler to grab your arms and drag you down with a suicide throw, you'd better start to crosstrain in some type of grappling.
-jojitsu27

[Mark]

Jojitsu or whatever..
I was simply replying to what the actuall begining of this post was about.
I didnt say that Wing Chun would kick a BJJ ass if they were both on the ground. I know Wing Chun isnt supposed to be on the ground thats what I said.
Sorry but how many Street fighters know how to do all that stuff that you just said???
How often are you going to come across a guy that knows how to do all that??
The Conversation wasnt about Wing Chun trying to beat BJJ, It was just genralisation that centre line theory still works on the ground.
If you wanted to argue about styles start a conversation in the Forum about it.
Basically I think anyone who weighs more than me could kick my ass on the ground but I know if someone were to hit me to the ground I could defend my self (using Wing Chun)Untill Im standing up.
By the way Where are you from?? Just curoius..

[flavour54]

Power in a Wing Chun straight is derived from the same place as a Boxing straight.

p..........c..........p

------------------
"take the pebble from my hand"

[This message has been edited by flavour54 (edited 08-05-2000).]

;I studied wing chun for a number of year. Whether complete or not wing chun is complete I don't know, but it literally saved my ass in prison.

[Sharky]

heheeee i'm glad it 'saved your ass' hehe.

thanks for making me laugh, and i'm glad you came out of there alive....

Edd