Legit Question: Shaolin Chuan Shu or Pseudo-Shaolin Wu Shu ???

['MegaPoint]

It's been some time since I've posted here. So "hello" to those of you who remember me.

Gene is that Shaolin you spend so much time on the real Shaolin or did real Shaolin relocate to places like Taiwan or become MAs like Kuntao/Kuntaw and Tode? Just wondering what your take was. Don't let duckets effect your answer .

Thank you much, sir.

[GeneChing]

*Hey, if it worked for Yoko to court John, it's gotta work, right?

I'm sure we've covered this before, but Songshan Shaolin has thousands upon thousands of students in the area. They just did a demonstration last year that had 45,000 students. Among those 45,000, you'll find wushu, sanda, TKD, muslim styles, even a weird version of cardiokickboxing. And you'll find authentic traditional Shaolin there too. You'll find authentic traditional Shaolin outside Shaolin as well, in Taiwan, in other styles, all over. But there are no guarantees with any place, style or country. If you think you can find traditional shaolin in kuntaw, I bet I can find 'wushu' kuntaw too (using the term wushu rather loosely here, but you should know what I mean.) Shaolin is much more than just martial arts techniques - check out our 2005 Shaolin special for more details on why. If you want an easy answer on who has the real Shaolin, you're not really on the Shaolin path. Try something less metaphysical, like tennis perhaps.

And don't call me 'sir' - I'm as good as you.

[GeneChing]

There have only been two steles sponsored by schools outside Shaolin erected in nearly a decade and they cost a lot more than a $1000. One was Taguo. The other was USSD. 'nuf said.

I'd be happy to dress as a monk and take a picture with you for much less, but I'm not shaving my head for less than a $1000. You'll just have to make do with a long-haired fake monk.

Is TKD wushu?

['MegaPoint]

There have only been two steles sponsored by schools outside Shaolin erected in nearly a decade and they cost a lot more than a $1000. One was Taguo. The other was USSD. 'nuf said.

I'd be happy to dress as a monk and take a picture with you for much less, but I'm not shaving my head for less than a $1000. You'll just have to make do with a long-haired fake monk.

Is TKD wushu?

No, it's watered down and morphed Shotokan, a kid combat SPORT.

Is Shaolin Wu Shu TKD? I bet a lot of their kicking techs are.

I'm an Orthodox Shorin Ryu guy. I feel that the Shaolin influence in what we do is probably more Shaolin than you'll ever see at any modern Shaolin Temple, albeit with Satsuma Clan Kenjutsu and Ti amalgamated with it.

I have manners so I call most cats sir and most chicks ma'am. That's the difference between the sun-belt and the Weak Coast or Left Coast. It's called "manners" and r-e-s-p-e-c-t.

Word.

As for Kuntaw/Kuntao- the Kuntaw I saw in the Philippines was not modern wu shu, although in the truest sense of the term it was decent wu shu. It looked a lot like Eagle Claw to me. I think the last of the real Shaolin drifted to Okinawa, Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines and Taiwan (and maybe Hong Kong).

Just admit it; that Shaolin deal on the mainland is a money-making enterprise. The emphasis on Shaolin teaching shifted (after the last destruction of the temple) from the pursuit of Ch'an Buddhism to the learning of Zen/Ch'an "principles" (as well as Confuscianism) in conjunction with solid SD techniques. These techs are seen in their most unadulterated forms outside the mainland. IMO.

Thanks.

[GeneChing]

Forgive my 'sir' hang up. It's something I've gleaned from some of my veteran friends and another buddy who was a DI. It's sort of reflexive. I've never been much for titles, especially when they are directed to me.

Sure, there's a lot of money being made by some people at Shaolin - there's also a lot of rather poor masters too. It's an extraordinary range. But imagine, if you will, a city that you can walk across in less than an hour with 80 registered schools, most with several hundred students, some with thousands of students. Now, challenges are still fought at Shaolin. Challenges are not at all uncommon in PRC - certainly more common than here in the states. I've witnessed them myself there. There's actually a rather complicated schedule overseen by the local government to assure that warring schools don't have the same day off - it was installed because the kids were getting into too many fights. With that kind of pressure, do you think that a school that's strictly wushu can survive? Don't judge Shaolin on what the tourist sees. There's a lot that happens at Shaolin that isn't as obvious.

[Eddie]

I took this from the article on your site
“There was a group of women dressed in shocking hot pink spandex, doing some sort of cardio kickboxing. I could have spent days just watching it all, but it was over in less than two videotape cassettes”

I am highly disappointed that there aren’t pictures or video clips of these ladies on in the article.

How about sharing some footage of those two video cassettes with us! Please?!

For the sake of good kung fu brotherly love.

[GeneChing]

I fear it'll be a bit of a let down to be honest, but I'm planning to include that footage in my upcoming video Shaolin Trips - we are taking preorders for the DVD...

[Shaolinlueb]

thats cool. if there are lots of fights, these kids should be learning to use their techniques pretty well then.

[GeneChing]

You know, I don't want to get anyone's hopes up on the "shocking hot pink spandex" - there are cardio-like programs on CCTV in the morning in China and Chinese cardio outfits, well, they're just not as provacative as they are here. It's like swimsuits in the 1950's...

As for fighting, Shaolin and wushu, coming from a traditional background myself, the traditionalists do tend to short change wushu fighting skills. It's not that wushu people can't fight. It's that they can't fight as well as traditional. But I'd still say that a wushu person will be fit and could fight better than some one who doesn't do anything at all. All being equal, consider the following fight matches:
Match wushu vs. traditional, put my money on traditional.
Match wushu vs. an average person, put my money on wushu.
Match wushu vs. a street fighter, put my money on the street fighter.
Match traditional vs. a street fighter, put my money on the street fighter.
Combine traditional and street fighting and you get something very effective.
Combine wushu and street fighting and I'm not quite sure what happens yet. I'd almost go so far to say you get traditional, but perhaps I'm just being incendiary.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Forgive my 'sir' hang up. It's something I've gleaned from some of my veteran friends and another buddy who was a DI. It's sort of reflexive. I've never been much for titles, especially when they are directed to me.

Sure, there's a lot of money being made by some people at Shaolin - there's also a lot of rather poor masters too. It's an extraordinary range. But imagine, if you will, a city that you can walk across in less than an hour with 80 registered schools, most with several hundred students, some with thousands of students. Now, challenges are still fought at Shaolin. Challenges are not at all uncommon in PRC - certainly more common than here in the states. I've witnessed them myself there. There's actually a rather complicated schedule overseen by the local government to assure that warring schools don't have the same day off - it was installed because the kids were getting into too many fights. With that kind of pressure, do you think that a school that's strictly wushu can survive? Don't judge Shaolin on what the tourist sees. There's a lot that happens at Shaolin that isn't as obvious.

hey gene, how about a neat article about that sort of nuance? i once saw a video of a shaolin challenge that occurred as a film crew was on site. quite an interesting expression. after about fifteen minutes there was a sea of bodies all over the place. there's got to be some kind of culture of school challenges...?... like the victors laying down in front of the school afterwards...?

[Starchaser107]

As for fighting, Shaolin and wushu, coming from a traditional background myself, the traditionalists do tend to short change wushu fighting skills. It's not that wushu people can't fight. It's that they can't fight as well as traditional. But I'd still say that a wushu person will be fit and could fight better than some one who doesn't do anything at all. All being equal, consider the following fight matches:
Match wushu vs. traditional, put my money on traditional.
Match wushu vs. an average person, put my money on wushu.
Match wushu vs. a street fighter, put my money on the street fighter.
Match traditional vs. a street fighter, put my money on the street fighter.
Combine traditional and street fighting and you get something very effective.
Combine wushu and street fighting and I'm not quite sure what happens yet. I'd almost go so far to say you get traditional, but perhaps I'm just being incendiary.

What about verses the military guy (marine, green baret, red guard) or law enforcement (swat etc) ?

[GeneChing]

Technically, modern sanda is modern wushu and there's a lot of modern sanda taught around Shaolin. Where does Sanda stand against traditional kung fu and street fighting? I'm not really sure. As for military skills, those generally beat martial arts as an academic practice. I still hold a good street fighter in the highest regard though - those most intense fights I've seen have been street fights, no doubt. Of course, keep in mind, this is just postulation on the premise that all other things are equal....

[Vash]

We should not practice traditional CMA any more. Instead we should just hang around bars and street corner, smoke cigarette, get drunk, involved with drugs, and pick up fight everyday. We would be in better shape that way.

Just don't know where "street fighter"'s striking power, speed, and endurance came from if they don't spent training time in front of punching bag and spar with training partners. Most of the so called "street fighter" didn't even know how to hold a fist correctly and they only know how to throw a "turtle punch" not even a straight jab. They even fight with their eyes closed.

I just don't buy attitute such as. "No matter how hard and how long that you have trained in TCMA, you wil be beaten up in the street".

Very very sad for the image of TCMA indeed.

. . . Ever had to take a chance against the kind of guy that fights in the public eye, on the street? I'm guessing that's a no since you obviously know so little about teh str33t l3th@l.

'Mega -

Are you saying that your Matsumura Orthodox is closer to Shaolin than traditional Shaolin (not a reference ot the modern wushu version) and closer to the White Crane than current White Crane Kung Fu?

[MasterKiller]

. . . Ever had to take a chance against the kind of guy that fights in the public eye, on the street? I'm guessing that's a no since you obviously know so little about teh str33t l3th@l.

Well, if YOUKNOWWHO would come clean about who he was, you wouldn't have to ask those questions, VASH. He's got skills and I'd take his word on just about anything concerning R34L fighting.

[GeneChing]

We should not practice traditional CMA any more. Instead we should just hang around bars and street corner, smoke cigarette, get drunk, involved with drugs, and pick up fight everyday. We would be in better shape that way.

Well, I have been.

OK, not really, maybe in my younger daze...

The problem with your statement is that it is based on a rather limited vision of martial arts as a lifestyle. It's the same error that all the BJJ/reality/street fighting people make: the only value to MA is if it can save you life in a street fight. That's so ridiculous. Seriously, how many fights are you really getting into on the street? I do volunteer work for a Free Medical clinic and have to do a takedown every month or so, but that's just me and my life is a bit unusual, to say the least. It's given me a great respect for street fighters, especially the ones who can use a sharp. I do use my CMA training in these situations, so mind you, I didn't say it was useless by any means. CMA clearly works on the street, but the street is dirty and most people fight clean. I would still say all things being equal, the street fighter has an advantage.

But that advantage doesn't last long - those street fighters pay their dues and seldom live to keep banging to their old age. One bad street fight and they may be crippled for life, or dead. That doesn't happen so much in CMA, or any traditional MA for that matter. That's the benefit of fighting clean. Fighting dirty is costly. And there's no way you can really train to fight dirty without getting blood on your hands. That's where all the MA fails on the street, but that's ok. We make up for it by taking a moral high ground.

What's more, traditional MA can be an old man's game. In fact, it can be played to a ripe old age. Are those masters going to throw down in that street corner bar of yours? Not likely. But they could probably escape that situation unharmed. It's about longevity. There's no longevity to street fighting.

Real martial arts is about the lifestyle and I apply my training in everyday life all the time. Of course, again, my life is unusual and it's easy for me to say this because I'm a professional martial artist. I earn all of my living here and have done so for nearly 20 years. But still, many of my friends apply CMA in all sorts of ways. I've got a good buddy going through chiropractice school and his CMA training has given him a great advantage. I've got another friend who saved his little kid's skull from being split when some one accidently barged on their stall as he was helping his son in the potty. You can't get more value then that. There's no fight, but there's CMA applications.