Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 43

Thread: so i just started cross-tarining...

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    1,386

    so i just started cross-tarining...

    and just got back from my first class...

    To start off we stretched for about 30 min, then worked out. did this thing called pillars. WHich is 20 push ups, 30 crunches, sprint up 50 or so stairs (roughly 35 degree angle so not too bad) circle around the pillar, bear walk down the stairs to the starting point, repeat. Repeated that 6 times, and then ran a full lap around the museum courtyard (we train outside an art museum). I was told this class was a light work out lol.

    Man I am tired...

    Its an external style called 6 elbows, and has an internal form to it called tai hui, I think. There are internal aspects to it, but like I said, I just started.

    Overall, I really like the one body one mind concept I learned tonight. How energy needs to flow and can't stay stagnent(sp?). The class is hard work i mean my shoulders are really shore for all the push up and bear crawls.

    I learned the first 7 motions in the first form and some basic foot work drills.

    Its different than wing chun, but man its a great art, and I think that the attributes I gain from this style will most definately compliment my wing chun.

    I am definately going back for more classes, and I am going to keep going back until I get good, or as long as my work schedule allows. The thing that hooked me was that after class was over we talked theory. The guy running the class said its not about style, or about technique, its about motion of energy and knowing how to apply what and when. He said he trains that way. It all makes so much sense...

    However, I am by no means what so ever giving up wing chun. Just thought I would share.
    http://www.wingchunusa.com

    Sao gerk seung siu, mo jit jiu - Hands and feet defend accordingly, there are no secret or unstoppable maneuvers.
    -Yip Man

  2. #2
    The conditioning stuff sounds very good; but I have to wonder what he means by this:

    "The guy running the class said its not about style, or about technique, its about motion of energy and knowing how to apply what and when."

    Certainly knowing how and when to apply motion and energy are very important - but so is technique.

  3. #3
    "but I have to wonder what he means by this:" --UWC

    He means you must have AWARE...



    Sorry, moment of weakness.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Thunder Bay, Ontario
    Posts
    2,164
    In the End it's all about Perception or Awareness, one and the same if you ask me. If I blindfold Frank Shamrock, how will this affect his overall effectiveness to fight? Lots, and the same is true for most people, if not all people, regardless of who they are. Perception skills are critical if you ask me, and once the basic foundation of structure within your own body is developed the key is to work on perception abilities from a non contact position and a contact position(chi-sao here). Just my 2 cents..

    James

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    5,714
    He means you must have AWARE...
    LOL, funny.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
    "Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander

    WC Academy BJJ/MMA Academy Surviving Violent Crime TCM Info
    Don't like my posts? Challenge me!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    1,386
    victor-

    Let me elaborate a bit more....

    These guys are strictly untraditional and give a rats ass about lineage or tradition. Infact, if you call the teacher sifu, he makes you do 100 push ups, because to him, he is not a sifu.

    They also don't get caught up in this style does this, that styles does that. Infact, I asked a few technical questions, and the guy running the class was like, "what is it with you wing chun guys? Always gotta be so precise and scientific." he then later told me to just feel out the technique and just do it, instead of over analyzing it.

    I have known these guys for a few years, but just recently started training with them. They train in the courtyard of an art museum. So people walking by can watch them since they are out in the open. One time some JKD guys happen to come by and watched their class. They asked them what they were trainig because they couldn't tell what it was. They said it looked like karate, TKD, kung fu, and grappling all mixed up in one. I will admit, its a very unique style and its not very well known or taught throughout the US, but this was coming from some JKD guys.

    Technique is important, and these guys practice the hell outta technique. I just worded that statement wrong earlier.

    anyways, i am feeling pretty good today, minus some soreness in my shoulders. A few weeks of this though, and my shoulders will become my ***** and just do what I want anyways.
    http://www.wingchunusa.com

    Sao gerk seung siu, mo jit jiu - Hands and feet defend accordingly, there are no secret or unstoppable maneuvers.
    -Yip Man

  7. #7
    Thanks for the clarification, Gangsterfist...sounds like these guys know what they're doing.

    Training with them is a good move on your part.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Thunder Bay, Ontario
    Posts
    2,164
    Quote Originally Posted by Gangsterfist
    victor-

    Let me elaborate a bit more....

    These guys are strictly untraditional and give a rats ass about lineage or tradition. Infact, if you call the teacher sifu, he makes you do 100 push ups, because to him, he is not a sifu.

    They also don't get caught up in this style does this, that styles does that. Infact, I asked a few technical questions, and the guy running the class was like, "what is it with you wing chun guys? Always gotta be so precise and scientific." he then later told me to just feel out the technique and just do it, instead of over analyzing it.

    I have known these guys for a few years, but just recently started training with them. They train in the courtyard of an art museum. So people walking by can watch them since they are out in the open. One time some JKD guys happen to come by and watched their class. They asked them what they were trainig because they couldn't tell what it was. They said it looked like karate, TKD, kung fu, and grappling all mixed up in one. I will admit, its a very unique style and its not very well known or taught throughout the US, but this was coming from some JKD guys.

    Technique is important, and these guys practice the hell outta technique. I just worded that statement wrong earlier.

    anyways, i am feeling pretty good today, minus some soreness in my shoulders. A few weeks of this though, and my shoulders will become my ***** and just do what I want anyways.
    As someone who is not just a practitioner of Wing Chun but a teacher also, I find the ability to explain exactly what the technique or concept is used for and also the ability to describe how it is done an important tool. So when ever someone says, just try to feel it out and go from there, personally I disagree with this method of relating information. If someone is asking too many questions I just steer them towards what they should be concerned about at their skill level when practicing a particular movement or concept. When teaching anything new to someone, you cannot reveal everything to the student all at once, this will just confuse them, but to only ask them to mimic myself the instructor and not ask question is a NO NO in my book. Questions demand Answers and in most cases there is nothing wrong when one is searching for answers. There are those students though that have what I call "Detailitus", and are always over anaylzing things taught to them. Usually with these people they are looking ahead and asking questions about things when quite frankly they are not ready for the answer.

    Over the years I've talked with hundreds of people with previous Martial Arts training, coming into the Academy wanting to inquire about our school and after the introductory lesson they always comment on the depth of information that is available to them, and that most of their previous training lacked this aspect. I always tell them that what ever they learn they will have an intellectual understanding of it, the when, where, how and why's will all be answered so they have a total understand of the WC they are learning. It is then their responsibility to absorb it into their neurological systems, so that they can use it when needed.


    James

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    1,386
    James-

    You have a good point, but if you lived closer to me I would say take the pepsi challenge. These guys are excellent martial artists, and why you sit there and analyze some small micro movement they are handing your a$$ to you. How would you like it served? I prefer medium-rare but thats just me

    Their concept seems to be more of, do it, do it, do it, then refine refine refine, perfect it.

    Their style of learning is hands on, and hard work, it has no dogmatic stigma to it at all. While understanding the science behind the art is a good thing and maybe better explains conceptual theory to someone, but its by no means required to be a good martial artist.

    Like I said I have known these guys for a few years and I have worked out with them in the past, but I just started going full time now. One of the first classes I went to they were doing a postured called the rat. We did it, and the class leaders would come around and adjust everyone's position so it was proper. One thing I noticed is, that everyone's was slightly different, this is because everyone's physique and bodies are different. They recognize this and will say that certain techniques will work best this way for you, and maybe this way for someone else.

    We don't run around in kung fu costumes and talk about proper structure, or extreme details of our martial art (not saying that you do james, just making a statement), instead we put in hard work. The very first class I went to, I almost puked I worked out so hard, and my writs, shoulders and quads were sore for like 4 or 5 days afterwards.

    Analyzing movement is a good thing I agree with you, but dwelling on it too much, is a bad thing. You must balance your training. I bet that most wing chun people do not work out like the way I did last night.
    http://www.wingchunusa.com

    Sao gerk seung siu, mo jit jiu - Hands and feet defend accordingly, there are no secret or unstoppable maneuvers.
    -Yip Man

  10. #10
    "We don't run around in kung fu costumes and talk about proper structure, or extreme details of our martial art...instead we put in hard work. The very first class I went to, I almost puked I worked out so hard, and my wrists, shoulders and quads were sore for like 4 or 5 days afterwards.

    Analyzing movement is a good thing I agree with you, but dwelling on it too much, is a bad thing. You must balance your training. I bet that most wing chun people do not work out like the way I did last night." (Gangsterfist)


    EXCELLENT POST, Gangsterfist...You've hit the nail right on the head.

    Conditioning is VERY important - as well as "doing the moves" - as opposed to spending inordinate amounts of time discussing and analyzing them. Too many wing chun people get caught up in the latter - and don't spend enough time doing the former.

  11. #11

    Thumbs up

    sounds like you've found an excellent place to train.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    1,386
    I am just really curious to see where this will take me 3, 5, 7 years from now. My senior in my wing chun class (who is also one of my teachers) also trains with these guys and has for several years. His kung fu has so vastly improved, and he turned them on to me, I was just waiting for the appropriate time to start cross training.

    His wing chun is so fluid, crisp, fast, and strong. His six elbows/tai hui is the same. I think its because he used training from both systems to build his attributes.

    I just hope my body can handle it and I don't injur myself by pushing myself too hard.

    BTW, just talked with the boss, work schedule not gonna be a problem so I can go to this class consistantly now.
    http://www.wingchunusa.com

    Sao gerk seung siu, mo jit jiu - Hands and feet defend accordingly, there are no secret or unstoppable maneuvers.
    -Yip Man

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Thunder Bay, Ontario
    Posts
    2,164
    Quote Originally Posted by Gangsterfist
    James-
    You have a good point, but if you lived closer to me I would say take the pepsi challenge. These guys are excellent martial artists, and why you sit there and analyze some small micro movement they are handing your a$$ to you. How would you like it served? I prefer medium-rare but thats just me

    Their concept seems to be more of, do it, do it, do it, then refine refine refine, perfect it. Their style of learning is hands on, and hard work, it has no dogmatic stigma to it at all. While understanding the science behind the art is a good thing and maybe better explains conceptual theory to someone, but its by no means required to be a good martial artist.

    Like I said I have known these guys for a few years and I have worked out with them in the past, but I just started going full time now. One of the first classes I went to they were doing a postured called the rat. We did it, and the class leaders would come around and adjust everyone's position so it was proper. One thing I noticed is, that everyone's was slightly different, this is because everyone's physique and bodies are different. They recognize this and will say that certain techniques will work best this way for you, and maybe this way for someone else.


    We don't run around in kung fu costumes and talk about proper structure, or extreme details of our martial art (not saying that you do james, just making a statement), instead we put in hard work. The very first class I went to, I almost puked I worked out so hard, and my writs, shoulders and quads were sore for like 4 or 5 days afterwards.

    Analyzing movement is a good thing I agree with you, but dwelling on it too much, is a bad thing. You must balance your training. I bet that most wing chun people do not work out like the way I did last night.
    It's not about analyzing anything in the moment, either you react or you don't, either once the opponents movement is initiated you step side ways or forward to intercept on a more direct path or you get hit/mounted/kicked or any other of a dozen things that are bad for you. The analysis is done in class with your instructor. Also conditioning (Wing Chun Conditioning, not strictly physical conditioning) is yes very important. Anyone can condition themselves to run a mile in great time, but defending yourself in a real situation is different, in the end it is all about perception and control of distance and timing, regardless of what style or delivery system they try to use on you and/or how effective that delivery system is, once your basic foundation is within you.

    My concept is hands on also. No one is going to learn a MA effectively by sitting behind a desk and analyzing it from start to end. Hard work by the practitioner is required for sure, that is the real meaning behind "Kung Fu", but you can have the most powerful kicks in the world and the fastest hands to back them up, if the ultimate weapon is not used, one's mind, then you have nothing. Wing Chun's greatest weapon is the use of the fighters mind (effective movement/concept) to overcome another’s power or speed advantage.

    When I express my WC it also looks slightly different than my Sifu's &/or Sihings/Sidi, like you said. We are all built differently, in some ways minimally and other ways more, but still the art works for everyone the same way. The Tan Sao side step and punch concept vs. the Hook punch works the same for a big man or little woman, otherwise the Arts effectiveness would be diminished due to the fact that one would have to modify it depending on one's physical attributes.

    Attire/clothing/uniform has nothing to do with anything but if you dimiss it then why do you wear clothing in the first place? Talk of proper structure does have its place and time, but it doesn't dominate the training. Regarding your soreness, anything new attempted is met with resistance, either mentally, emotionally or physically. I too would probably have been sore if I were to try their class for the first time, as I'm sure they would to if they tried ours also for the first time.

    Your last statement is just a shot in the dark. Know one knows how other WC people train, it would be impossible to know such information, so statements like that are null and void. My Sihing who is 37 yrs old does 4 or 5 hour long conditioning classes a week(besides the other 4 or 5 teaching classes) and he is not pushing himself to the limit on most occasions, while the others are. For me I choose not to participate as I have other things to do that are more important to me, but in the past the workout was more important and that was the priority, so the work has already been done. Now is the time for refinement and more analysis in my situation. Lots of people on here think this path will result in me being a less effective fighter, that's great and maybe just what I want them to think, who know's? In my mind, fighting or being a fighter is not important, living a quality life and sharing something of great value to me with others is. If someone choose's to attack me then what happens will happen, I'm confident in a positive outcome for myself.

    Gangsterfist, in the end if you are happy with your cross training path then I am happy for you too, and because I have never seen the six elbow system in action nor any of these people you are training with I can't make a personal assessment of their abilities or how effective/non effective it is, but when someone just says just do it and don't ask questions, I become suspicious. Good luck to you in the future.

    James
    Last edited by sihing; 04-07-2005 at 09:13 PM.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    5,714
    A bit of cross-training never hurt anyone. All the elite KF people I've met have fairly high levels in at least one other MA besides their core art and have usually played around with a few more as well.

    Always good to see how other people approach the issues of combat and training for it.

    There's a time for deep analysis and a time for just doin' it. Usually this is cyclical. One of my teachers related the response of an old time boxing coach he knew to questions like "my uppercut ain't quite working for me," etc., that response being "ask me again after you've done a million of 'em". I don't totally agree with that, but experience is the best teacher.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
    "Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander

    WC Academy BJJ/MMA Academy Surviving Violent Crime TCM Info
    Don't like my posts? Challenge me!

  15. #15
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Thunder Bay, Ontario
    Posts
    2,164
    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich
    A bit of cross-training never hurt anyone. All the elite KF people I've met have fairly high levels in at least one other MA besides their core art and have usually played around with a few more as well.

    Always good to see how other people approach the issues of combat and training for it.

    There's a time for deep analysis and a time for just doin' it. Usually this is cyclical. One of my teachers related the response of an old time boxing coach he knew to questions like "my uppercut ain't quite working for me," etc., that response being "ask me again after you've done a million of 'em". I don't totally agree with that, but experience is the best teacher.
    I agree with most of this also. There's a time for everything, and a new approach to a situation may hold the solution to something that you need a answer to. Investigation is the key and when ever I have done so it usually leads me to a answer within the WC that I already possess but never realized was there.

    James

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •