The Tiger and Leopard Influence on Pak Mei

[fiercest tiger]

IMHO i think you can develop the whole body in everything as we are one anyway. Thats what form is supposed to do dont you think?

Unless you use 3 boarder ging then yeah you are punching half heartedly and not full force.

Gou

Does Futsan have a ground fighting form or something close or is to defeat a ground fighter? Not a form that beats a shoot but beats from the ground?

I still think Day sut is the best CLC Bak Mei form in the system.

FT

[Lowlynobody]

As Garry has rightly stated if you look at pak mei in this way there arnt many techniques that actually qualify as truly six points, making the style narrow in focus, But again what is pak mei trying to achieve? Quick aggressive incapacitation so how many six points of power techniques do you need?
Obviously garry's journy has found a different path, im happy with pak mei.

You have miss read/understood what sifu has said. If you don't use your body in striking for example you are simply arm punching and every martial art out there including sport martial arts would tell you that is wrong and ineffective in terms of power and in terms of opening yourself up to be hit. So are sport martial artists when they are using the whole body to punch and teach that arm punching is bad teaching external or internal?

I think that perhaps our forms may be different to yours. Being in cat using double butterfly palms such as in day sut you still drive off the rear leg, turn your waist, use the back, extend through the shoulders, open the elbows, and pull your fingers back using the wrist in the palming motion to release the power into the strike.

For the scissor leg take down you still have to drive into the leap with the legs, use the waist and the torso to aid the legs in the scissor mortion. We have trained this on heavy bags and you flip them through the air.

By that sort of thinking any sort of kicks would not use the whole body. What about the kick behind the leg in gau bo toi or sub baat mor kuil?

I'm not sure what you mean by a hopping kick?

My question about sparing was just a simple question. Nothing more. Its a disscussion. I was just interested to know how you train.

I never claimed anything about pure bak mei you came up with that on your own. Please don't miss read. In the context of my questions the word "pure" and "essance" are interchangeable. Where using only the essence of bak mei is using pure bak mei i.e just bak mei and its theories or principles. You see?

Regarding 1-2-3 and finished - what happens if this doesn't work? What then? If you are only prepared to throw 3 strikes with the first probably being your set up then you may find the person isn't taken out and you have missed your opportunity. Better to throw 10 strikes and overwelm the person and keep going untill they go down and stay down.

Anybody that knows me knows I never imply anything. I say what I mean. There is nothing to be read into my words. They are simply what they are. I'm not pushing some hidden meaning waiting for you to slip up so i can say "Ah har! There you see I'm right!" I'm just trying to discuss martial arts and get other perspectives rather than going through my life with blinkers on ignoring the infinate possibilities that exist.

Cheers

[Tiger on Duty]

maybe i came across a little strong

as for whole body etc im talking about six points of power, six points and whole body are not the same thing. If it was, any style who used the whole body would have six points of power but they dont.

obviuosly your focus for combat is different from ours does that make ours incorrect or less likely to work? no its a different focus or way of thinking.

In our pak mei there are different levels of combat:

1st no defence just attack, which if you fail in your 1st 3 techniques to achieve a ko is what you describe keep attacking until they go down. Obviuosly this leaves you open to overextension, and if you still cant take them down cracks in your attack will appear and you will get hammered.

2nd stick/trap, by sticking to the range you want them at or trapping them so they cant get away you control them until a opening arises.

3rd no defense just counter, the highest level where you counter their attack with the intent being on landing your most devastating blows.

so yeh differing ways of thinking about combat.

Your understanding of sixpoints of power obviuosly differs from us so we'll leave it at that. you dont have to agree with me or even believe me so thats cool.

Cheers a great discussion.

[Olaf]

Dave,

I heard Chi Saan is the two man set that is linked to Sap Baat Mor Kiu. In that case I find it interesting that it is taught before the handset. Is there a reason for that?

[Lowlynobody]

Don't worry about coming across too strong. Most of us have quite strong personalities and many of us can be fiery and agressive when it comes to talking about the things we are passionate about - fighting & martial arts. So if I get excited and a little worked up in my posts please don't take it personally as it not intended that way.

Thanks for giving us and insight into how you see fight training development. I would never (and have not) say that your focus for combat is incorrect or less likely to work. I have never met you in person let alone spared you so I'm certainly not qualified to comment either way. I feel that is about the only way someone could make comments in that regard - by experiencing it for themself.

There is obviously a difference in our understanding on the luk ging of bak mei. Which as you say is cool. I'm sure you and your school use it to great effect.

What kind of gets me going is the elitist-ness that sometimes comes from bak mei people and others including MMA people. Their elitist way of thinking can be blinding.

While we are on the subject of the different levels of combat in your Bak Mei I wonder if you wouldn't mind answering my question about how you go about sparing or live and free flowing fight training at your school? Anyone else as well.

Cheers


P.S I dissagree with you when you say that throwing many strikes leads to overextension and holes in your defence. Once you get the strike in that gets a reaction you can move in and continue to move forward throwing strikes like a machine gun overwelming them. It greatly depends on HOW you use the tactic. I'm not talking about simply closing with a flurry of blows. That will get you caught.

A good way would be a fake or set up (footwork or body evaision etc) followed by a short combo that if land well can be followed by moving in (not necessarily directly forward) and overwelming as well as a plan to create distance and back out of the exchange if needed and use weapons like kicks to keep them back so they can't capitalise.

[Pakmei]

Hi Olaf,
How you doing m8?

There are techniques in Chi Sau / Saan that are from Sahp Baa Morr Kiu, but there are quite a few from Gow Bo Teuw.

It's how it's taught in Tang Sifu's school. I certainly know that when he first started teaching Pak Mei in the UK back in the 70's. He only taught the techniques first to the students and later on the forms. That way he ensured that the students were able to use each and every technique separately before putting it into a sequence.

So you could say that your learning some of the techniques from Sahp Baa Morr Kiu as well as consolidating the techniques from Gow Bo Teuw, before going on to learning the actual Sahp Baa Morr Kiu form.

Each Sifu, will teach in their own particular way. That's how Tang Sifu taught.

[Olaf]

Dave, that makes sense. What I heard that the link with SBMK is also in the application of the power.

[Pakmei]

Olaf,
The application of power in SBMK is heavily influenced in the whipping like hands.

By this I mean, you may cast your mind back to when we were in HK and I performed SBMK for Hung Sifu that time. SBMK is 'soft' and fast..... the softness and power comes from the whipping like hands movements, while maintaining a strong foundation from GBTK.

On Sifu, Hung Sifu's friend mentioned to me that he knew I had leanrt SBMK, while he was watching me perform the other forms they got me to do, because my hand movements were faster and softer, than how some people tend to perform Pak Mei.

On a basic level, Chi Sau / Saan has the foundation from GBTK and the hand skill of SBMK.

[Olaf]

It is indeed the softness that I mean. I think we are in violent agreement

[Hardtail]

Tiger on Duty, it would appear that we are on similar paths in respect to the progress of forms and perhaps training , i.e. : Jik Bou - Gou Bou Teoi - Sup Bat Mor Kiu - Mang Fu Chut Lum, there is one other after this, Mang Fu Hau San, which I have never seen.
Certainly from SBMK upwards are only for those dedicated, time served and closely trusted.
There are no other Sau Kuen at all in the Pak Mei I have been taught. Our teacher by the way was taught by both Chow Fook and Un Ho Bun.
The forms shown on your website are very similar indeed.

[Tiger on Duty]

ah that is cool, havent seen any schools close to ours yet(in emphasis and movement) except my sibak Chan(sigungs son), so i would love to see a brief clip of your forms if possible, not the external forms please since we dont do most of those. jik bo would be good.

We have some clips of chow fook and his students, his student is wearing our t shirt lol dont know why?? day sut if i remember correctly and Sifu chow did mang fu.
Sifu Chow is or was part of my sifu's organisation we have many of the group photo's.

I think mang fu hau san was a failed form, or so secret he didnt even teach half his disciples it?

Lowly we hardly do any sparring, some two man sets and my sihing and myself train everynow and then.
In my sifu's day they sparred at 100% intent, unfortunately this isnt practical for us as we dont wanna be in hospital for 6 weeks.
This has its problems but all training has weakness.

[fiercest tiger]

Hey Tiger,

What is luk ging in your system and how u work it, connect it etc? Interesting info coming through indeed!

As for fighting Lowly and myself spar everyday and we are both different sizes and speeds. I think he is starting to work out my methods so i will change it but he is doing well. My YKM system is fighting based as well forms but we are doing alot of fighting. A HUGE discovery within my own art has sparked much new and serious fighting tactics, strength, theories etc so now no bak mei is used within our fighting and purely internal YKM art.

This being said i think punching and trappling range Bak Mei is one of the best arts for but as i once mentioned is lacking the lower gate and ground fighting thats why i believe Day Sut Kuen is best now of all Bak Mei FORMS. CLC added it for a reason and now i know why! I think you stick to more the core forms for fighting as well the forms your sifu made up? There are many interesting stuff in the 3 door eight direction form, 4 door form, day sut. Even Mung Fu is more a form designed for even closer range then punching.

Anyway sounds like you guys go hard at sparring too? 6 weeks in hospital isnt good.

FT

[Sui]

f.t about time


then you're doing it wrong.

[Tiger on Duty]

what are you talking about sui?

[fiercest tiger]

HEY, Hows things Bro?

Long Time, hope all is well with you mate? Email me is you get a chance!

FT Lonely for sui