The Tiger and Leopard Influence on Pak Mei

[Tiger on Duty]

I dont worry about legends, i worry about losing what we have.
Our bak mei also has some chi gung etc besides the fighting forms, however its not as developed as some of the more recognised internal styles.
Like yourself garry my sifu has said many times that bak mei is great for general health and fitness especially for the bones muscles and tendon's, however for long term fitness and fighting ability he recommends tai chi or something similiar.

[Yum Cha]

This is interesting Garry, on this, we're on the same page. And, Tiger has it right too.

Pak Mei chi gung as I've learned it is not just about keeping the power inside, but about putting it into something else. This starts as an external power, but becomes more internal as you reach the higher levels. No big secret here.


The chi gung, again, that I have learned, is about summonsing the "fire" and moving it around your body in a meditative exercise, then it involves learning to move that "fire". This fire can also be used to heal, by directing it into your pain/sickness, or to protect, by putting it into your vulnerable points and to destroy, by putting it into your strikes...

Now, is this a soft skill? It has more relaxed elements, and it has a meditative component, but its application can be hard and agressive. And there is a whole basket of psychological elements woven in as well.

[fiercest tiger]

Yummy, Now we are getting somewhere, maybe if you gave this answer before there could have been no misunderstandings as such?!

Is your method a Kundalini type meditation of you just hooking up the fire and water? Sometimes simple sitting meds, walking moving meds that buddhist do are the easiest and the best to cultivate mind but im not too sure about CHI? Anyone care to add? I myself think that Daoist CHI cultivation is much more advanced in ways the Buddhist but thats going off my experiences. I dont know too much about the tendon and bone marrow washing chi kung of Damo so cant comment here. I can say that the YKM internal forms are very good for health and cultivation chi for fighting as well healing but isnt as deep or advanced as the WUN YUEN YUT HEI JURNG that im learning at this time. Once i do finish it ill be going back to my YKM internal to see what other differences and similarities there are.

Tiger,

True, But thats all you guys have is legends! Just kidding!!! I think your Sifu is correct but i dont know what meds you guys of CLC have or if they have been added to from your Sifu? Your Sifu does Taiji so he can definitely tell you whats good and whats not. Does he reconmend taiji for long time health and fighting compared to bak mei fight?

Good to get this thread going again guys.

Garry FT

[Pakmei]

How you doing m8.

Sorry I haven't been back on the board for a while guys... been having some major problems with my computer for the past month. Whats more the computer problem still isn't resolved and I'm awaiting for the manufacturer to come and collect my machine so they can take it back to the factory.

Anyway Tiger, I believed you were asking who my Sifu is?

Sifu Tang Cho Tak; 6th Generation and Disciple to the late Cheung Bing Faat.

Hope that clarifies who I trained under and where my lineage is.

Regards

[Tiger on Duty]

Yes he does garry, as he puts it when your young strong and fast pak mei is basically all you need, he believes that when u get older and your not as fast strong etc using an aggressive style like pak mei might not be as good as using a more defensive style which is easier on the body for training daily.
Thats just his opinion. sounds pretty good to me thou, except i dont have the mindset for tai chi yet.

Oh thats great lineage steven, means where 7th gen brothers.

What aspects of pak mei does that lineage follow?
i.e what forms are stressed above others, i never really cared about the weapons as they vary from school to school.

If you know of our lineage from Chan goh wah, you may know we have no external forms except ying jow lim kiu, 1 intermediate form created by our sigung gum gong and 1 begginers form created by my sifu daijin.
Otherwise we have the core forms of jik bo, gau bo toi, saap bhat mor kiu and mung fu chut lam.

emphasis for us is stressed on jik bo as the foundation and gau bo toi for the refinement of the pak mei power, saap bhat mor kiu for the softness and mang fu for only the true disciples.

All the other forms have benefits but are not considered as important as the core(original forms).

The reason i ask is ive read a few of your posts and you seem to be quite similiar in your focus, and their arnt many schools ive found that share those same qualities. Even ones related to cheung bing lam's lineage.
It's been along time since i heard of any cheung bing faat related schools so its good to know there still around.

do your forms look anything like ours?? check out our website if you havent been yet.
www.chinesemartialarts.org.nz

cheers tiger

[Pakmei]

Hello Tiger and everyone,
Sorry for the delay in responding to any messages, PM's and/or emails. My computer at home has been returned to the factory to be fixed or replaced. I won't get it back until end of this week, so hence I'm having to use the computer at work to respond to messages.

You were asking what we learn in the Bing Faat lineage?
This is the order that everything is learnt:
1) Jik Bo Kuen
2) Ying Jow Lim Liu Kuen
3) Sahp Jee Kuen
4) Saam Lahm (1st sparring form)
5) Gow Bo Tuew
6) Say Mun Pa Kwa Kuen
7) Saam Mun Choi
8) Chi Sau/Saan (2nd Sparring form)
9) Sahp Baa Morr Kiu Kuen
10) Man Fu Chu Lum.

Emphasis is heavily placed on Jik Bo and Gow Bo Tuew for the foundation, body shape and power generation and not to mention body conditioning. The last 2 forms are taught to true disciples only!

However, the way that we train is by teaching the techniques of the forms first of all, before actually teaching the student the form. This way they get the feel of the movements/techniques in prcatice and application before linking it all up into a pre-arranged sequence.

I've found by teaching this way, it also makes it a lot easier for the student to learn the form, once they have an idea of the techniques from the form both from a singular component as well as a combination of techniques.

[Tiger on Duty]

Ah very intersting lineup of forms nothing amazing as to the forms but interesting in the progress.

1st school ive seen that has sub jee but teaches it after jik bo, thats great im biased of course coming from my lineage i dislike most of the hybrid forms, well the ones that dont maintain the true pak mei essence like sub jee and sam mun, ying jow is pretty good thou a good conversion.
Before evryone jumps down my throat thats just my opinion.
I just dont see the point in learning forms that depart from the pak mei basic principles, why learn about 6 points of power, ttfc and then learn forms that dont use them?
Of course the answer is Clc taught them and we are a traditional style so thats the way it goes

I would like to say it seems theres a good dialogue goin on here between the pak mei players and i hope it continues.

Zaijian

[Lowlynobody]

Why would you not be able to perform sets such as sup jee with luk hup (6 points) and ttfc? If you have trained the principles and your body has them then any fighting movement would then contain the principles, no?

[fiercest tiger]

Nice combo of forms although i beg to differ regarding the hybrid forms. If anything in bak mei i would only learn for fighting is Day Sut Kuen!

The rest repeats or simply not worth it due to its fighting range and what they lack there of.

Anyone wanna comment please do so!

FT

[Go Jun Long]

Nice combo of forms although i beg to differ regarding the hybrid forms. If anything in bak mei i would only learn for fighting is Day Sut Kuen!

The rest repeats or simply not worth it due to its fighting range and what they lack there of.

Anyone wanna comment please do so!

FT

Not too sure I agree with all that, and Day Sat is a very acrobatic form. Yes many of the hundreds of forms in Bak Mei repeat, that is why it has been drawn down to the core 7 forms. The other forms are there to teach the changes. This is now done in different ways to reduce the amount of forms. But believe me, they are all fighting forms, and anyone who thinks otherwise really does not have a true understanding of the forms and/or their meanings and changes.
Its good to hear the different reasons one or ones lineage practices certain forms, ie Chi Gung, Fa Ging, internal, external etc.. though I have not heard from anyone the reasons we do. I find it fascinating the differences between the sects of Bak Mei.
Hum, maybe we should start a thread to address the reason certain forms exist and what one uses them for. Good Day all

[Tiger on Duty]

actually six points is very specific and is not found in all pak mei movements, so you can train all u like in it but if you use a movement that isnt 6 points then you dont have it.

Some of the hybrid forms dont use the six points of power, therfore you cant use it. That is the point im making.

lmao again im sure people will disagree but thats ok.

Also im not saying that the hybrid forms cant be used, just that some are lacking in the basic principles of pak mei.

If it works for you garry thats cool.

[fiercest tiger]

Yeah, i know what you guys mean but im seeing things alot different these days and i think that Bak Mei of CLC only has one form that deals with groundfighting and its very basic and can beat a basic grappler but not a true Garppler. Most of the Bak Mei or Hakka hand deals with upper and middle but not the lower platform for fighting. So i think that Day Sut has the Attributes to train stand up and ground to a degree!

YKM internal forms are the best fighting system i have come across due to its fighting, training methods, chi kung. I dont practise Bak Mei anymore i do teach it the forms of bak mei that is in YKM but my training is on the Internal YKM system which i think is more effective as it trains stand up, clinch, throws, takedowns, submissions thats within the form and no need to add BJJ or anything to help.

Bak Mei is a great stand up art in my opionion but i can now see why YKM internal art was kept secret to a degree.

Day Sut Kuen is very good against some grapplers but is lacking some! I dont see why you need 5-6 forms that share the same moves and repeat even if it adding another stage or training attribute rather then a new form that deals with a certain type of range not just stand up as most bak mei forms do!

anyone care to add? The above is my Opinion only guys not starting an arguement but its what i see as the truth within myself.

peace
FT

[Lowlynobody]

actually six points is very specific and is not found in all pak mei movements, so you can train all u like in it but if you use a movement that isnt 6 points then you dont have it.

Some of the hybrid forms dont use the six points of power, therfore you cant use it. That is the point im making.

lmao again im sure people will disagree but thats ok.

Also im not saying that the hybrid forms cant be used, just that some are lacking in the basic principles of pak mei.

If it works for you garry thats cool.

What movements in your opinion don't make use of the 6 points (i.e using the whole body)? If not all movements contain a certain principle how can it be a foundation principle? So in a fight or sparing you would have to restrict yourself to those specific few movements that contain the 6 points otherwise you're not using "pure" bak mei and not hiting with your whole body?

Perhaps a good way to clear up what you are saying is to explain how, to you, a movement would not contain the six points as oposed to one that does.

I'm interested to see your reply.

Also one last quick question - Do you spar at your school? If so what form does it take e.g gloves, mouthguard, etc or more a chi sau bare hand and head gear sort?

[Go Jun Long]

Yeah, i know what you guys mean but im seeing things alot different these days and i think that Bak Mei of CLC only has one form that deals with groundfighting and its very basic and can beat a basic grappler but not a true Garppler. Most of the Bak Mei or Hakka hand deals with upper and middle but not the lower platform for fighting. So i think that Day Sut has the Attributes to train stand up and ground to a degree!

YKM internal forms are the best fighting system i have come across due to its fighting, training methods, chi kung. I dont practise Bak Mei anymore i do teach it the forms of bak mei that is in YKM but my training is on the Internal YKM system which i think is more effective as it trains stand up, clinch, throws, takedowns, submissions thats within the form and no need to add BJJ or anything to help.

Bak Mei is a great stand up art in my opionion but i can now see why YKM internal art was kept secret to a degree.

Day Sut Kuen is very good against some grapplers but is lacking some! I dont see why you need 5-6 forms that share the same moves and repeat even if it adding another stage or training attribute rather then a new form that deals with a certain type of range not just stand up as most bak mei forms do!

anyone care to add? The above is my Opinion only guys not starting an arguement but its what i see as the truth within myself.

peace
FT

Garry, I understand where you are coming from, and I think its good you found YOUR art, the one that works best for you. I also see where you are coming from about learning 6 or so forms that deal with stand up fighting, but fighting, though really very simple, is also very complex with having so many variables. This is why, I believe, there are versions of the same thing with different approaches. As with Bak Mei and ground fighting, no there really are no forms that "Specifically or Totally" deal with ground fighting, but all forms have changes that will deal with ground fighters (if that makes any sense ). Anyone care to add to this?

[Tiger on Duty]

[What movements in your opinion don't make use of the 6 points (i.e using the whole body)? If not all movements contain a certain principle how can it be a foundation principle? So in a fight or sparing you would have to restrict yourself to those specific few movements that contain the 6 points otherwise you're not using "pure" bak mei and not hiting with your whole body?]

do you truly believe evry technique u use makes use of evrypart of the body thus qualifying as six points?

If you retreat into a cat stance and palm strike are you using six points?

If you drop to the ground and do a double scissor takedown(day sut) are you six points of power?

if you do a hopping kick are you using sixpoints?

Im not sure why you have brought sparring into this? or claims of pure pak mei?
Im talking about pak mei essence which is the foundation characteristics of our style, which makes us unique.

Yes by harnessing an understanding of six points, geng gak ging and ttfc we can use many techniques to a better degree then their purely external counterparts, but that does not mean that they are actually six points of power.

As Garry has rightly stated if you look at pak mei in this way there arnt many techniques that actually qualify as truly six points, making the style narrow in focus, But again what is pak mei trying to achieve? Quick aggressive incapacitation so how many six points of power techniques do you need?
Obviously garry's journy has found a different path, im happy with pak mei.

1-2-3 IMHO.

Once again i will state for lowly that im not saying the techniques dont work if you dont have sixpoints im saying certain forms dont really conform to the basic principles of pak mei a big difference to what you are implying lowly.