The Tiger and Leopard Influence on Pak Mei

[Soykuil]

Hey Dave,
thanks for the answer.
Maybe i am thinking too external and using my limited internal practice as a comparison..i can see how jik bo can be done soft but still not internal.

Is jik bo developing chi and ging and if so what type of ging?

Are you truely doing Jik bo internal, or are you as soft as you want to be?

I still cannot agrees with you on the Jik bo theory considering what i have seen through my internal practice what real internal is.

Is jow bui toi internal or is it purely soft and relaxed?

thanks

[Yum Cha]

Hi Guys, lots of comments and follow-ups overnight. I'll ceed this thread to Dave, he has put it as clearly as I could imagine. We've strayed a bit from the tiger and leopard though....

I think there are some confusing concepts here. Internal and soft for example. I think the YKM contingent, FT and his students, are also bringing into it internal concepts from the other arts they are now studying. While there may be common ground, I'm wondering if you guys aren't on another path already. There are many ways to get to the same place.

Jik bo, 4 internal, 6 external powers, chi, ging and shen: form and concentration, and then non-concentration... That is the exercise. As for it being tight, or relaxed, well, the relaxation comes with the breathing, the focus and the execution of the shorter power elements.

The "micro and macro" exercises are done separately, but when you come to understand them, they become part of the way you do Jik Bo as well. Centering, circulating the energy, the breathing, the "disconnectedness".

Cheers Guys,
Good Thread.

[fiercest tiger]

Mantis, yum cha, and the crew,

I think we are all mixing what "WE" think is internal like Yum Cha says although i have to disagree with you big fella due to the fact that i dont believe that Jik Bo or the hand sets of Bak Mei/YKM will take you to the higher internal levels of chi cultivation.

I believe that the internal workings of power generation of FCTT, luk ging with breathing creates a very explosive and deadly force thats very true. But i believe that its like a SHELL with nothing inside comparing to INTERNAL SOFT ARTS such as Taiji, Wun Yuen, YKM internal, and other great chi kung methods. Maybe the Chi Kung of Bak Mei if you have it is seperately and not within the fighting form. Do you have Bak Mei chi kung that isnt a hand set? I have heard of Bak Mei chi kung i alsoi have Bak Mei Chi Kung that i practise and its very internal and is not the jik bo form or any other hand set like what we all do as BAK MEI PAI.

If Bak Mei is internal then why is many BM Sifu's doing Taiji or Other interanl arts to get there Hei Gung?

Im not doubting for one minute that the BM system isnt internal but not like the soft arts and i TRUELY think that it wont cultivate your chi to a higher level then Taiji of other Hei Gung systems.

Please dont think that im causing trouble just my Honest Opinion and its great to chat to all of you since we havent had a good discussion on Bak Mei for years. Mantis 108 you always have great info and i would love to hear your side like everyone elses.

respect
FT

[Waxoff]

Bak Mei is certainly an internal MA. The develoment of breath and jing control is different than Tai Chi. But nevertheless the goal and the achived skill is very similiar. I have trained and have experience in Bak Mei and Tai Chi. It is quite amazing to pick up a stiff Tai Chi sword and make it vibrate after you Fa jing. I was able to do this along with experienced skilled Tai Chi practioners. I was just a beginner and had no experience with a sword. It was strictly due to my jing development in Bak Mei.

If you Bak Mei guys haven't had a chance to pick up a Tai Chi sword, hey give it a try. You"ll be surprise to see how well you can extend your Jing/Chi or not!

[TAO YIN]

This is a very cool thread for sure.

Doesn't breath control inhibit chi flow? Jik Bo definetely trains breathing patters in coordination with principles of fctt, luk ging, and luk hup. However, this form seems to teach a person to only breathe out when striking and breath in when grappling. So, can a person "have ging" if he strikes and breathes in or grapples and breathes out? If so, Jik Bo doesn't train this concept. From this rationale, Jik Bo is not internal. It is inhibited due to breath, and it does not follow nature. With regards to animals, a tiger can attack and breathe in or out while doing so. With any meditative practice, the key concept is to breathe normally and let the chi circulate without thought of how or why it is doing so. Any thoughts?

Tao

[Soykuil]

Nice Replies guys,
I have to agree with Tao Yin regarding the breathing concept.

Yum Cha,
yeah i agree, i think our theory on internal is probably different to yours regarding Jik Bo and Bak Mei in general.

Can you guys tell me then which ging jik bo does train, does it develop the chi and ging to penetrate and rupture the internal organs?
What chi gung methods are there to complement the hand forms and help cultivate the chi? Or do you believe that the forms do that themselves?

Do the Bak Mei forms Cultivate the chi?

thanks

[Yum Cha]

Tao Yen,
The breathing you describe in Jik Bo is not the breathing I was taught. If you breath that way, then you will not find the same results. Breathing has to be natural, and not synched to a particular move. This is the first step in internalising Pak Mei, and a fundamental skill.

Soy Kuil,
See above...., yes, our Pak Mei is obviously different. You do a mix of YKM and Doo Wai's "secret" Omei Pak Mei, and are you also studying the Luk Hup Baat Faat and Wun Yuen with Garry? I just do Guangzhou Pak Mei. There are bound to be differences...

For example we don't have all the 6 different "Gings" that Uncle Doo has, we just have one. As for rupturing internal organs, well, I've never been in the situation where I've tried to.

Garry,
I agree with a lot of what you say, as to the existance of this external "shell". But, we're definately on different pages concerning internal.

Wax Off,
A good example.

[Soykuil]

LOL Yum Cha,
what secret bak mei, everyone knows about it. You make it sound like we mix and match, that is definitely not the case.
I do not study or know Doo's "6 gings" you seem to refer to.

I study YKM external and internal first and the LHBF second, so get your facts right first mate.
Regarding rupturing internal organs, i didn't ask about a situation, i asked whether you can do it. Is you internal chi level upto a point where you can do it?

I have never been hit like i was by my LHBF teacher, it went though my body vibrating and the pain was unbelievable. Sifu Garry's hits are the hardest i have felt, but it was different. This was truely internal.

Maybe your concept of internal is different to mine. Like you said you only study Bak Mei

That is why i ask about chi etc. having ging is all great but do you cuiltvate the chi for it to be internal???

You are probably right, we are on different wave lengths.

[fiercest tiger]

LOL, whats going on?

What i teach isnt a mix match of Kung Fu, i teach each system and the hei gung that goes with that system. YKM, Bak Fu Pai, Bak Mei external hand sets and Internal hei gung. As for SECRETS, hell yeah the Bak Mei Hei Gung is what makes the Ging even stronger in the Bak Mei. CLC had it but maybe didnt teach it out but just the hand sets? As for Bak Mei being an INTERNAL and EXTERNAL style these days then basically KARATE follows the same principles as the hand sets of Bak MEI. They have the hunching and swallow and spitting!! What make a system internal is the chi kung not the fact that u breath in or out as you do a fast form.

Hi Matthew,

Yeah i think we are on different levels of internal work and i respect that mate. No biggie its good to see what the Bak Mei train for internal anyway and if that gets you to the place you need to get to in your kung fu im happy.

When you do the microcosmic orbit matthew what do you feel and how fast can you get the chi to move during Jik Bo Kuen?

Garry

[HupGerk]

Hahaha,

here it is...the long awaited proof of the KARATE - Bak Mei connection....

http://www.pyramid-it.nl/KungFu/pages/technieken.aspx

Now there can be no doubt...

*LMAO*

HG

[fiercest tiger]

Not that there is anything wrong with Karate, i have seen some great Karateka and they have ging also.

But what i am trying to say is if all it is, that internal is from your form doing FCTT then Karate is the same.Maybe you are saying that its external chi kung that you are learning?

Garry

[Pakmei]

I certainly know that Cheung Lai Chuen taught the 'hei gung' to his 'late' son Cheung Bing Faat. From all accounts from my Sifu and my Daih Si Hing's, the power that he generated was awesome.

Cheung Bing Lam, would most likely know the hei gung as well, as he's pretty powerful when I observed him demonstrate in Hong Kong.

As for any of the other disciples of Cheung Lai Chuen; I'm uncertain.

[mantis108]

Hi FT,

Thanks for encouraging open dialogue for such a delicate subject. I believe there are many routes to the same destination.

Personally, I believe that Kung Fu is bascially a mystic discipline meaning it is about the union of the space-time continuum with the body-mind continuum; hence, I believe something isn't quite kosher if one were to say such and such practice is internal while such and such exercise is external to me. Of course that's only my opinion and I don't mean to offend anyone. It is important IMHO to set out to practice bearing in mind that the body is the mind and the mind is the body. This is the only way that the conversion of bio energy from Jing to Qi and Qi to Shen can happen. Isolation the physical exercises (body) with the intent (mind) is only to render the art into a sport IMHO. If it is an art that we want to develop, we need to live and breath literally with the art.

Jing makes the body strong and sturdy but Shen makes the body supple and sentient. Jing makes the person be aware, Qi makes a person be alive, Shen makes a person be awaken. It is this difference in the conversion that is important in my mind. This is the softness that I believe we are all talking about. Essentially, there is rigidity within the flexibility - the needle in the cotton ball. That's the martial prowess within the practice of the Neigong or vice versa. They are one and the same if it is from real tradition Kung Fu. We may approach it step by step but like the limbs of the body, all developments' paces should be synchronized or risk a deformed body (and yes the mind too).

In keeping with the theme of the thread, I will conclude with this observation. Tiger is the largest cat there is. It uses its body weight behind it's strikes usually it's a pounce and choke hold with the powerful jaw rather than reaching and pawing with the claw. Its strenght comes from the use of body mechanics. Leopard on the other hand is smaller and would "grapple" with use of claw and choke hold with jaw as well. It's prowess came from understanding of distant, timing and position which can be summed up as disposition. Bak Mei no doubt teaches the combination of these skills of the predators.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Lowlynobody]

So who wants to put up a clip of their jik bo so we can check out the use of internal aspects and the realisation of the tiger and leopard influences of Bak Mei?

[Fu-Ying]

This debate about bak mei, YKM, bak fu, being internal or how it is external, is kinda like 2 people tasting the same cup of coffee and one saying it is too sweet i don't like it, the other saying it is not too sweet it's just right.

First, no 2 people ever have the same meaning of these terms (internal/external). No one here has the same definition. Nor has anyone of you even describe what they mean.

I mean doesn't it seem to make sense to say something as more internal or external shouldn't we describe these concepts.

But i think that would be an exercise in futility because these are such vague metaphysical concepts.