Wing Chun Stance-Pigeon Toed or parallel?

[Sihing73]

recently I have entered into a discussion concerning the use of the Pigeon Toed Basic Horse in Wing Chun compared to the Parallel Toed version. As some may know there are different versions of Wing Chun and some use the Pigeon Toed (most popular) while some use the Parallel Toed. I have heard that the Pigeon Toed Stance is the basic while an advanced student can use the Parallel Toed stance. There are numerous photos of Yip Man showing his feet to be parallel. I am not interested in getting into any type of bashing here, I am interested in hearing what the props and cons are for each position. I would hope we can discuss this in a spirit of friendship. (Although I admit I muself have fallen recently and been guilty of allowing my emotions to carry me away). In any event I welcome your input.

Peace,

Dave

[Sam]

The pigeon toed stance is used in Wing Chun as well as many other styles to develope a rooted horse and centralize energy in the Tan Tien. In fighting application the feet are in a natural straight position though the inner thighs can still close. This helps with mobility in transition from stance to stance when closing, angling, or circling. The high pigeon toed stance must be developed in unison with the low horse and cat stance in order to have rootedness in the high natural stance. The pigon toed stance is actually the reverse of lotus. WWW.buddhapalm.com

[OdderMensch]

My Wing Chun stance work sucks [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

this is beacuse in the "goat pinching stance" I use my abduction to pull into the ground. if your feet (at least with my legs) are parralel you cannot full get the abductor prime muscles into the stance. also if my feet are parralel it strains my knees.

I know other schools work the stances diffrently but that is the way of our kwoon.

[Sihing73]

OdderMensch,

When performing with the feet parallel you should draw the knees more forward than together. The goal would seem to be to form a traingle with the apex slightly ahead of the feet. If you draw the knees together and downward then you will cause strain on the knees.

Pigeon toed does seem to be easier to perform properly in the begining.

Sam,
Why would you train one way and fight another? It would seem to make more sense to fight the way you train. Seems to me if you have to hink about it and adjust in order to use the art there is a flaw in training methodology. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] I would also like more details as this is an interesting subject. I think Robert Chu has shown with his structure tests and such that one can develope "root" and structure without resorting to other stances. Again, since Wing Chun was designed to be easy and straightforward why complicate it with other things?

Just for the record in WT I was taught to use a pigeon toed stance. In application my feet were still pointed in not parallel. Of course at times both of my feet were pointed in the same direction. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Peace,

Dave

[Sam]

There are parts of forms which are used for internal development. Within Siu Lin Tao are other techniques which are not so obvious such as kicking, knee checks, and footworks. The positioning of the feet to open the stance is very important. Most stances put pressure on the knees. Adjust the pressure to strengthen tendons and ligaments not damage them. Quibbling about techniques is foolish when understanding concepts will flood you with endless techniques. Fut Sao Wing Chun breaks down "all" it's forms and techniques for fighting, internal, Chin Na, and Ging powers.

[Sihing73]

Sam,

You obviously feel very highly about your system and I am not trying to put your methods down. What i am trying to do is get to some specifics about what is different and why. It is all well and good to make claims or references which support your position, or mine, however where is the substance? Not saying that your method is not good nor what you are saying is correct. But, it is easy to make vague comments concerning various training. Where is the substance that supports such claims? For example you state:
"The positioning of the feet to open the stance is very important. Most stances put pressure on the knees. Adjust the pressure to strengthen tendons and ligaments not damage them"

Fine, lets discuss this in detail. What is it that one needs to do in order to make the adjustments to prevent putting pressure on tendons and ligaments rather than damage them? Can this be done using the Pigeon Toed version or can you do it with feet parallel as well? How many stance variations exist in Fut Sau?

Again, this is not a bashing but an attempt to get to some meat. I can say my system of Wing Chun has internal methods and mental conditioning but if I am unable to explain why that is then my claims do not seem to be as valid. There are many in the Wing Chun world more qualified than I and some are well known. Robert Chu with his approach is probably one of the most well known for incorporating and explaing internal aspects of Wing Chun. In New York there is also Sifu Santos Barbalace as well as Sifu Cama. Both could give different aspects of Fut Sau. I am not interested in politics but in substance.

Peace,

Dave

[Sam]

I am only a student and it would be presumptuous of me to attempt to teach over the internet. If someone is truly interested they can contact my Sifu at www.buddhapalm.com or Si Kung Henry Leung. I can discuss or comment on general concepts. Sihing73 you have strong belief in your Wing Chun which is fine but you cannot force someone to divulge their art by challenging their knowledge. Sometimes when someone refuses to answer does not mean they don't know.
Sam

[Sihing73]

Hi Sam,

I do not want to get into an exchange which serves no purpose. I am not trying to challenge you. It just seems that the purpose of posting and replying to such posts is the exchange of information. If one is not willing to make that exchange, in whatever detail one is capable of, then the posts tend to have little value.

I can respect your postion but I find it a little confusing. I mean you did reply to the post so I figured you had something concrete to offer. If you do not feel comfortable offering more then I guess that will have to do.

In any event I wish you well and perhaps, when I visit New York I will be able to visit your school and speak to you. Just for the record; I have spoken to Sifu Cama via telephone a few times and he was very polite and seemed a very nice person. If he was not in Brooklyn I would doubtless have visited him by now. However, since I am in Philly and usually take public transportation to New York, I am not familiar enough with how the trains/buses run to visit Brooklyn, Yet. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Peace,

Dave

[Highlander]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sam:
Within Siu Lin Tao are other techniques which are not so obvious such as kicking, knee checks, and footworks. [/quote]

The way we do Sil Lim Tao, after the opening of the stance our feet do not move until the stance is closed at the end of the form. Does your Siu Lin Tao contain footwork or are you saying the kicking, knee checks, and footworks are hidden in the openning and closing of the form?

[WT]

In the pigeon toed stance you should be
springloaded to explode forwards,with a huen bo or a kick.
I can't really see how you can do that with your feet paralell.
WT

[Sihing73]

Hi WT,

Not sure I would say you should be "spring loaded" in the pigeon toed stance. My understanding has always been to relax and sink, kind of like sitting in a high chair. As to being able to Huen Bo or kick I would agree that one should be able to do either with relative ease. To perform either move will require a slight transfer of weight so I do not see why having my feet parallel would make it any harder. I just tried it both ways and was able to Huen Bo without any difficulty from either position. the body dynamics are diferent. The Pigeon Toed does seem to present the illusion of being more "spring Loaded" than the parallel version. In this medium it is hard to explain but try doing both versions and let me know what you think.

In the pigeon toed version sink your weight and adduct your knees together and slightly down. In the parallel version sink your weight and try to adduct you knees slightly forward and down. Not sure if I am making this clear but I would be interested in your responses. The difference between the two would be that in the pigeon toed version the feet form the two sides of the triangle with the toes pointing to the apex. In the parellel version the knees form the sides of the triangle and point to the apex. (I know you could argue that the knees work the same in both cases but the feet is what makes the difference and is what I am getting to. Plus the knees in one go down and in while in the toher they go down and forward).

Now to make this even more open for debate, [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] what is the spacing of your feet and how close should your knees be together? I have seen both stances done shoulder width apart and sometimes slighter wider or narrower. I have also seen the knees hold some object to insure proper adduction. Things range from a tennis ball or cassette tape to a small volleyball (boy was that amusing [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] ) After this we can discuss the proper way of opening the stance [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] LOL Lot's of Fun.

Think about why we do things not necessarily how. What I am getting at is, there may be more than one "right" way to do something. And, all ways may not be "right" for all people.

Peace,

Dave

[WT]

Dave,

Not sure I would say you should be "spring loaded" in the pigeon toed stance.

What I mean is if you do it correctly you should feel a strong urge to move forwards.

My understanding has always been to relax and sink, kind of like sitting in a high chair. As to being able to Huen Bo or kick I would agree that one should be able to do either with relative ease. To perform either move will require a slight transfer of weight so I do not see why having my feet parallel would make it any harder. I just tried it both ways and was able to Huen Bo without any difficulty from either position. the body dynamics are diferent. The Pigeon Toed does seem to present the illusion of being more "spring Loaded" than the parallel version. In this medium it is hard to explain but try doing both versions and let me know what you think.

The pigeon toed version still feels more "explosive" to me.
I seem to move forwards faster.

In the pigeon toed version sink your weight and adduct your knees together and slightly down. In the parallel version sink your weight and try to adduct you knees slightly forward and down. Not sure if I am making this clear but I would be interested in your responses. The difference between the two would be that in the pigeon toed version the feet form the two sides of the triangle with the toes pointing to the apex. In the parellel version the knees form the sides of the triangle and point to the apex. (I know you could argue that the knees work the same in both cases but the feet is what makes the difference and is what I am getting to. Plus the knees in one go down and in while in the toher they go down and forward).

So how do you turn from the parallell version?

Now to make this even more open for debate, [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] what is the spacing of your feet and how close should your knees be together? I have seen both stances done shoulder width apart and sometimes slighter wider or narrower.

About shoulder widht,a little outside.
You could check it by doing a 90 degree turn.

I have also seen the knees hold some object to insure proper adduction. Things range from a tennis ball or cassette tape to a small volleyball (boy was that amusing [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] ) After this we can discuss the proper way of opening the stance [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] LOL Lot's of Fun.

How about weight distribution on the legs,turning on the heels or the center of your feet? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

WT

[Sihing73]

Hi WT,

"What I mean is if you do it correctly you should feel a strong urge to move forwards."
"The pigeon toed version still feels more "explosive" to me.
I seem to move forwards faster."

Okay, I can go along with this although it seems to work better if your weight is more towards the ball for forward feeling. Again, I was taught to kind of sit and relax to sink down so I try not to have that forward feeling unless I am actually moving forward, or intending to. (DM)

"So how do you turn from the parallell version?"

You can turn much the same way as the pigeon toed version. Only difference is you would need to move both feet to reference correctly. The Pigeon toed version would allow you to only need to move one foot. Still, to be fair most times when using the Parallel versions I would opt for a slight step rather than a turn. Most times the step is slightly at an angle. Let me try to be clear on this, I am talking about a very subtle movement not a large step. Oftentimes I am able to apply it and my opponent does not even realize i have moved or changed my reference to his center. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] Still I need a lot more practice in this method to get as good as some I have seen. (DM)

"About shoulder widht,a little outside.
You could check it by doing a 90 degree turn"

I can agree with this I think about shoulder width is common. The method of opening the stance I was taught for the Pigeon toed version was to put both feet together and trun the toes out then rotate my heels out on my toes, point my toes in all the while sinking my weight.
The method of opening when using the Parallel version is to start with both feet together and then Huen each leg to get the proper spacing and sink with the toes pointed straight ahead. (DM)

"How about weight distribution on the legs,turning on the heels or the center of your feet? "

While in the YJKM weight distribution has to be 50/50 it is only when you turn or step that the weighting would change. If you perform the basic horse with any thing other than 50/50 you will find yourself off balance and will also cause some alignment problems. As to turning: depends on the circumstance and intent:
1) Turning on the heels-allows you to maintain distance from an opponents force and retain a position of relative safety. This is best when used against a very powerful opponent whom you are unsure of your ability to handle.
2) Turning on the balls-Allows you to move in closer to an opponent and apply more pressure to him. This is a more aggressive method and is used when you wish to dominate and charge your opponent.
3) Weight Centered Turning-This is a nuetral method and also a very common and safe response. It allows you to maintain your stability and structure without the need to shift or readjust your position. I think most Wing Chun people would use this method. many refer to the K-1 point in the foot as the ideal place for weight/shifting to be. (DM)

Keep it up as I am enjoying this coversation. Makes me think about things and I am learning from thinking [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] Keep in mind that with Wing Chun it is your opponenet who determines your reaction. You must respond to what is given, if you have to think about it then you need more practice. Ouch my head is starting to hurt. LOL (DM)

Peace,

Dave

[flavour54]

Sihing, I feel more comfortable in the parallel stance but then again that's the way we practice. Haven't you trained under both sets of footwork?

------------------
"take the pebble from my hand"The old monk from the TV show"Kung Fu"

"I just go at it as best I can"
Benny the Legend.

[Highlander]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sihing73:
As to turning: depends on the circumstance and intent:
1) Turning on the heels-allows you to maintain distance from an opponents force and retain a position of relative safety. This is best when used against a very powerful opponent whom you are unsure of your ability to handle.
2) Turning on the balls-Allows you to move in closer to an opponent and apply more pressure to him. This is a more aggressive method and is used when you wish to dominate and charge your opponent.[/quote]

I must be missing something here 'cause this sounds backwards. If you look at the lower leg as you pivot from left to right and vise versa on the balls of the feet, you will notice that they move away from the direction of the turn. Pivotting on the heals, the lower legs move in the direction of the pivot. Therefore, pivotting on the heals reduces the power of a punch by moving away and pivtting on the ball increases the power by moving with the punch with full body unity.