Wing Chun Stance-Pigeon Toed or parallel?

[WT]

Dave,

I have done chi sao with a guy who turned on the heels.Because he was turning on the central line he was alwas redirecting my attacks,making it very easy to counter.
A more active and harder style.
Turning to evade the opponents attack makes more sense to me.
WT

[Sihing73]

Flavour54,

I have been fortunate enough to train in both sets of footwork. However, I have trained most of my time in the Pigeon Toed Version and my time in the toher is limited. Thus my allusion to still having much to learn [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Highlander,

Try turning both ways and tell me if you notice what I am getting at. When you turn on the heels your body actually is further from the opponent. Thus increaseing distance and perhaps reducing striking power. Turning on the Ballss will bring you closer to the opponent and you can lean slighlty in and thus possbily increase power in your strikes. Keep in mind that I am talking about the relative position of your body during these movements. Also, don't think that you can't produce power from a back weighted stance when you are further away. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

WT,

Turning on the heels is a more passive response. By keepiong distance one tries to have an envelope of safety. Still, different storkes for different folks and situations. I personaly like to turn on center or side step. Still, turning on the heels can be useful for drawing an opponent in [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Peace,

Dave

[WT]

Dave,

Using the words active and passive can really
confuse things. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Turning as I see it should be passive,that is the opponents force turns you.
On the other hand your response to an attack should not be passive,that would be a mistake.
The turn should produce a counter attack.

What I meant with active was that when this
guy turned on his heels with,lets say a bong sao,he also started to redirect my punch.

There would be something wrong with my chi sao if I didn't react to this. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

WT

[Sihing73]

WT,

I agree with what you have posted. Turning should be as a result of the
opponents force not your own choice. Also, you should always attack. Still,
turning on the heels is a method used when one does not want to make an
aggressive counter and wishes to maintain some degree of distance. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] This
is what I meant when I said it was a passive method. Turning on the balls
will be more aggressive as you are going into the opponent.

If during Chi Sau your opponents Bong Sau with a Turn redirects your punch,
or whatever, then it is possible he is not doing Bong Correctly. Though
there are times you would apply force with a Bong it is most often applied
as a passive technique which changes immediately into another attacking
method. Bong should form a shape with a 30' bend of the arm. If you are redirected as a result of Bong then it should be as a result of the structure not because force is being applied with the Bong Sau. Still, there are a lot of ways to apply the concepts from each
technique. I have seen Taun used as an attack rather than as a method of
receiving the energy. There is a good article on Renes Web Site rite now
which you may wish to look at. Go to:
www.wingchunkuen.com
and read the current feature. It talks about the differing ways one can
apply Wing Chun. At least it is something to read [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Peace,

Dave

[WT]

Dave,

Have you heard the expression "monkey looking in the mirror" tan sao? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
WT

[Sihing73]

WT,

Can't say that I have ever come across this saying/statement. Should I consider myself a "monkeys uncle"? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Peace,

Dave

[flavour54]

I played with the pidgeon toed stance and I feel it made me a little less free when it came to range and freedom of movement of arms and stomps and front kicks off the front legs.But then again I am not a seasoned user of the pidgeon toed stance.Perhaps if you train it from day one it is a different story. And as to pivoting we always step to avoid pivoting on an unfamiliar surface where a street fight is about to commence. I like to keep my feet a little wider than shoulder width and thighs almost parallel
Just as a point of interest who here fights in a perpetual tee stance with 60 percent of their weight on the rear leg?

------------------
"take the pebble from my hand"The old monk from the TV show"Kung Fu"

"I just go at it as best I can"
Benny the Legend.

[This message has been edited by flavour54 (edited 08-10-2000).]

[WT]

Dave,

It's what Kernspecht calls the WC tan sao,
where if you put a mirror in your palm you would see yourself. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
As opposed to the WT tan sao with the palm up.

WT

[Sihing73]

WT,

The "shape" for Taun may have changed slightly since I was involved. I remember we performed it with the Hand/Palm more level. In which case holding a mirror would not show me myself but would reflect what was above me. However, strictly speaking Taun is formed by rotating the Bong Downward with the elbow remaining in roughly the same position. This would result in the palm being more in line with your saying.

Nice to think about [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Peace,

Dave

[vingtsunstudent]

when beggining the p t stance is taught to teach the student angles of attack & defence
& also to help strengthen the ligaments & tendons in the knees & ankles(this good to have when fighting on uneven surfaces) as the student reaches biu jee they in all honesty no longer have to stand like this(although it is still recomended)as there stance should be very strong by this stage.
always remember this is only a training stance devised to optimise your precious training time by allowing u to train what in a fight would be either of your rear legs
which generally will be carrying a larger % of your weight,to stand in front of your opponent & offer your groin would be madness
when moving 1 leg foward into a fighting stance the front leg should be turned in slightly as 2 cover the gion,the knees should be slightly bent & never straighten
& most importantly the waist should be locked foward 4 stability & power(it,s also good 4 helping with that adrenaline or eximent u feel when your about to have some fun)
wow......sorry if i got carried away there or if anyones views may differ but that's just my take on things......hope i've been some help or even just offered something someone may find helpful

[Phil Redmond]

Someone mentioned turning from the horse on the balls of the feet or the heels. In my lineage you don't turn with the horse. You step maybe, but no turn. Also, "Yee Jee Kim Yang Ma" translates in Cantonese as "Character two pinching goat stance/horse". The character for two in Chinese is two parallel lines either perpendicular (old style), or horizontal (modern Chinese). The pigeon toed stance looks more like character eight in Chinese. Should it be called, Baat Jee Kim Yang Ma? I can't wait for the contoversy on this one. By the way, I've studied both styles including Henry Leung's. As a matter of fact I was a sifu under Henry Leung back in the day.
Paz

[edward]

sh, 2 reasons why pigeon toed is done in the beginning....

1) by being in pigeon toed stance, its easier to turn or shift

2) not being in pigeon toed stance, you no longer create a pyramid base structure

as for yipman breaking this rule, this is a case where if you master WC, you can break the rules....his adjustment is so fast and timely its not necessary for him to keep it pigeoned toe...

not that i've master the art, but i can get away with not being in pigeon toed when i chi sao and still adjust at the same rate if i were....

[mun hung]

The first thing I would like to say is that shifting on the heels keeps your legs in the same position as they were - only your body positioning changes. If you had no feet and had only stumps in place of your heels, would'nt your legs still be in the same place after the shift? That's what I thought!

Actually, shifting on the balls of your feet move your whole body away and is not very stable at all. Try taking a punch (a real one) while you're shifting on the balls of your feet. You will find you are off balance and unstable because you are not rooted at all.

When you shift on your heels you are always rooted to the ground and more stable meaning you can generate more power from the ground. Make sense?

Just a few questions:

Do any of you guys feel that the power of the horse is from the ground?

Have you ever felt the power of a punch coming from your heels?

Have you ever intercepted a heavy blow and felt the power being absorbed into the ground by your horse?

Do you feel your heels in the ground during Siu Nim Tau or Chi sau?

If not - then you definitely don't know what I'm talking about. ;)

Last question - when you turn your horse to face an opponent from the side - are both your feet still pointed inward towards each other? If so, why?

I hope I have'nt offended anyone. This of course, is just my opinion.

;)

[WCFish]

I think many of you are missing the point of the pigeon toed stance. e.g. when you do a bong sau the important thing is where your elbow is, not so much where your hand is, although the hand postion needs to be good too. The same goes for the basic stance, your feet are turned in to create the correct alignment at the hips! It is all to do with anatomical positioning of the hips, pelvis and spine. After all it is the stance which is the strength of Ving Tsun.
Some people have very limited internal rotation of the hips and hence will find it near impossible to get their feet more than slightly pigeon toed. This doesn,t mean that their hips aren't in the correct position however

[reneritchie]

In my experience, if the weight begins on the heels, when pressure is introduced, it is easier to force it back beyond that and then stability is reduced. If, on the other hand, weight is kept around K1 (bubbling spring), when pressure is introduced, the heel is still there as a buffer.

Rgds,

RR