"Sport" moves for the street

[Simon]

After reading the "A model to consider" thread and heaps of previous comments it seems that many people in Wing Chun separate techniques into:

- Street moves (deadly!! :O )
- Sport moves (i.e. restricted by rules - limited targets, and techniques)

I would like to argue that if you train "sport" moves more realistically then they would be more appropriate for the street rather than less realistically trained "street" moves. I would much rather rely on a punch that I have repeatedly thrown at sparring partners in a stressfull full contact sparring round that a simulated eye gouge, leg break etc. Have you ever broken someone's leg in training? gouged their eye out? How about delivering a full power punch (albeit through gloves and headguards)? Which would you rely on?

I'm not a streetfighter by any means and definitely encourage argurments against my ideas above

[Wong]

that is why test. we are differ world.

[t_niehoff]

The "deadly techniques" are a red-herring. Any technique, deadly or nondeadly, requires fighting skill to pull off. And you only get fighitng skill by fighting. Kano's training method (not "sport") was based on his recognition that it isn't the "deadliness" of the technique that matters in determining success, rather it's how well we can *perform* that technique in fihgting that determines our success. In other words, it's not the technique but performance that became his focus. Our ability/level to perform depends in great degree on our past performances under similar conditions. So our ability to do something under fighting conditions (a noncoperative situation)depends in great degree on our performance of it in past fighting conditions, and that's true of a nondeadly technique like slipping a punch or some alleged "deadly technique" like poking someone in the eye. Since Kano recognized that certain things, like poking in the eye, just could not be significantly repeated under fighting conditions (we'd lose our training partners that way), he eliminated them and focused on developing those things that we can repeatedly perform under fighting conditions, and thus develop significant levels of skill. Having some "deadly technique" that one has never trained in fighting only means they have some technique that they have never really developed the ability to use under fighting conditions (it's the same if they never trained the slip under fighting conditions -- it wouldn't work either!). So when folks say they want to use those sorts of things, they are really saying they'd like to use stuff they've never adequately trained.

[Ravenshaw]

Most people don't go around fighting all the time, and even considering those who have fought "on the street," how many of those situations call for snapping the other guy's arm? Is it really necessary to poke the guy's eye out as soon as he puts 'em up? In my mind, that sort of thing should be left to life-and-death situations (in which such damaging attacks might be called for). This comes from both an ethical and legal standpoint. Besides, who says punches are useless on the street?

That said, I don't think that all "deadly" techniques are hard to train. For example, if I have someone in an armbar, I'm relatively certain that I can, in fact, break their arm with it, although I've never actually done so. I've never stabbed my fingers into another person's eyes, but why would that be so hard to do, considering that we punch all the time? If it's an issue of target practice, give your training partner some goggles. If I can kick a person on the body, I can kick them in the knee.

As for Dim Mak practice... well, you could always hide the bodies.

[edit]: I just thought that I'd add that sometimes the tournament rules don't just restrict our "deadly" moves, but the standard ones, too. For example, in some cases, you cannot legally punch continuously to the head, nor can you elbow or knee strike in many competitions. Also, gloves get in the way a great deal, especially when we're talking about WT/WC. Those are the more common complaints I hear about tourneys, anyway. I've never actually heard someone bemoan their inability to kill the other person.