Tai Chi and Russian Systema

[shaolinboxer]

Has anyone else noticed that systema, which is gaining ground as a popular and "devestatingly effective" art, is based on chi/ki manipulation techniques?

Why is it that systema has suddenly poped up with instant credentials? Is is because they simply use different terminology?

This system seems similar to aiki-jujutsu.

Any thoughts?

[Repulsive Monkey]

I have seen advertised a few years ago but I don'y know enough about it to comment on it, I wouldn't mind getting hold of some info. on it as I would like to understand its orirgins. From what I gather it seems like an internal - ish fighting art. I have seen the adverts by Rob Poyton in UK martial arts mags advertising it.

[Chris McKinley]

A few years ago, someone told me that they had found this system, Systema, which looked to them much like Baguazhang in the way it treated multiple opponents, and sent me the video. At least from that video, I can't really see the comparison to Aikijutsu. To me, it looked more like a cross between Pentjak Silat, only with a more fluid touch, and John Perkins's Attack Proof methods. Certainly different from what's usually seen, but some of the stuff seemed fairly wise tactically.

The portion of it that I got to see didn't include the full scope of true internal mechanics found in the neijia arts, but, like several other "hybrid" arts, enough was there to make it formidable if used by a skilled, experienced practitioner. I didn't like EVERYTHING I saw (keep in mind this is only from video), but then I never do, even when I'm watching a neijia vid. What I liked most about it and found most refreshing was that Vlad Vasiliev was actually doing something different from most external arts tactics. To me, a lot of the usual stuff starts to look pretty similar after a few years. The Japanese stuff is usually some variation of Karate or some variation of Jujitsu. The Korean stuff is pretty much TKD or Hapkido, which itself is exceedingly similar to JJ most of the time. We've all seen the ubiquitous Boxing/Muay Thai/BJJ combo and its close cousins, as well as the JKD/Kali approach. All of this stuff can be good; don't get me wrong at all. I train a lot of it myself. My point is that many of us in the U.S. martial arts community are pretty familiar with it. The Systema stuff simply "looked" different. I have no idea how it stacks up tactically, having never touched hands with one of its exponents.

[Stranger]

Systema has some material in common with aikijujutsu, an art which I greatly respect, but there is also quite a bit that seems different.

There is a lot of energy and sensativity work for both destructive and healing purposes. There are many exercise that work to develop this energy.

The "instant credentials" are largely due to Mikhail and Vladimir's complete willingness to share their knowledge, which is deep. Nothing new about that, just rare.

I've never met a person who actually trained in person with either of these men that did not walk away impressed with their knowledge, nice people too.

[Leonidas]

I thought everyone had him pegged as a Grade A maniac, for his references to Psychis Energy or whatever it's called. Is it supposed to be the same as Chi, Bioenergy, ESP............ what is it?

[Stranger]

Asking me to explain it would be like asking a KF practitioner with very little experience to explain jing or chi.

He has seminars in NYC fairly regularly.

If you want to judge his skills without meeting him that is fine, but it is not my purpose in life to defend what we do on the internet. I have learned it is pointless.

[IronFist]

Some guys at www.dragondoor.com 's message board know about sytema. In fact, there's a huge thread about it right now.

Click here, good thread

IronFist

[Kempo Guy]

Chris and Stranger,

Not to disagree with you guys.
My old Aikijutsu teacher mentioned specifically that the principles utilized in Systema is very similar to the concept of Aiki as used in Aikijutsu (Daito Ryu). He also attended some seminars to feel the techniques... Anyway, just wanted to share that with you guys.

I'd be curious to hear why you guys don't think it's similar to Aikijutsu.

KG

[Stranger]

I have felt aikijujutsu and have felt Systema at the hands of Vlad. I have also seen other people with similar training backgrounds realize this same differences, whiel admitting similarities.

People who do not train in Systema regularly tend to see it in terms of what they know (ie. it looks like this or it looks like that).

My background in Japanese arts I find is not hindering my progress in Systema, but it is different enough that I feel like a beginner. I am constantlly being corrected for relying too much on what I have been exposed to in the past rather than moving how my instructor would wish.

Is there a common ground in principles? Yes, harmony and softness. I'm not saying it is like comparing apples to oranges (more like apples to pears or oranges to some other citrus fruit or maybe even as close as comparing different types of apples to each other). There is enough different, however, that they are definitely not the same thing.

[Leonidas]

Hey Stranger, you know a class in NYC, i want to check it out for myself, and i didn't mean to diss Vlad. I dont know him so.......

[Stranger]

159 West 25th Street 2nd floor
(201)768-9712
Instr. Guy Velella

[Chris McKinley]

Kempo Guy,

While I've never trained in Aikijutsu per se, I'm pretty familiar with the overall flavor of it, having trained in Aikido, Baguazhang, the Dumog of Kali, and BJJ. The stuff I saw of Systema had a very different look to it then Aikijutsu. Firstly, not much of it had anything to do with joint locks whatsoever. You have to remember, the tape I saw was on fighting multiple opponents, so there's not going to be much joint locking going on anyway. Secondly, the stuff I saw was much more flowing and loose than the typical Japanese take on it.

Again, I haven't really given you much of anything to agree or disagree with. I haven't trained the system, I was only giving my particular impressions of what I saw of a small portion of the style on a videotape, so my assessment of it probably isn't worth the pixels it's typed on.

[NafAnal]

I've seen mikhail's systema and felt one of his punches.... i've never felt a punch like it before. Got the impression he was using only a tiny fraction of his power. That guy's got some good stuff. regardless of where it comes from.

I know there's a little controversy about systema out there. The russians seem to think the chinese used russian bodyguards and consequently the chinese systems are based on the russian art... I can't see why the chinese would employ foreign "white devil" guards but never mind. I'd like to see some evidence either way.

There's also some other things out there regarding systema's true origins, but it's all heresay, however i have some first hand stuff which is interesting.

He did some no touch knockdown but it literally is clever use of psychology and making your opponent fall over himself. It wont work against someone who's closing his eyes, having said that mikhail is very good at it. Not too practical on a street level though.

They talk a lot about drawing your power from the light or dark side, from the heavens or from hell. Apparently from what i gathered from a bad translator, chi is use of the dark side or something.... Fascinating stuff would have liked to have trained for longer but it doesn't look like he'll be doing another uk seminar any time soon.

[Kempo Guy]

Chris,

Aiki in Aikijutsu does not necessarily have anything to do with jointlocks. It can be applied against a punch or whatever and does not require any twisting of joints... but that's a totally different subject.

If you ever get a chance, take a look at tapes of Seigo Okamoto sensei of the Roppokai. You will see what I mean.

The Aiki in Daito Ryu is quite different than the "Concept" of Aiki in Aikido. It is nothing like the concept of Irimi/Tenkan i.e. tai-sabaki.

KG

[imperialtaichi]

Hello Everyone,

Anyone familiar with the Russian Systema? I find it sharing some of the Tai Chi principles.

Cheers,
John