Attention: 5 Venoms

[fa_jing]

I posted the clip of the Wing Chun vs. Mantis friendly sparring clip from my personal video. I have met both instructors. Both are formidable fighters. You said "I hope neither of these is representative of their style" What criticism are you levelling, exactly? How would you advise them to spar in a safe manner that's different from what you saw? Would you offer a sparring clip to demonstrate what you mean?

I ask because the level of criticism I have heard regarding this clip is bullsh!t, so far it's been entirely from people who would get their asses whipped by either practicioner.

People think that fighting is all perfect like you see in the movies, or that you can spar all out no gear without getting hurt. Let me ask you, did you see Frank Shamrock fall over executing a kick and getting his ass whupped on SpikeTV? Would you then say FS is a laughable representation of the MMA style? The man has won the UFC title many times as you should know. When people are of similar skills the fighting is not pretty and anything can happen.

[PangQuan]

I noticed (i believe the first time) that they went to the ground, the praying mantis man ended that with a claw to the throat. He did that without hurting the other man. This also endicated that the other man would have been dead at that point were this actual combat.

thats what we call skill in martial arts

[red5angel]

I've seen that video before, it's not bad, here's my observation on what 5 Venoms may be trying to get at, if he's not a troll.


These guys are doing some light sparring. They're not trying to knock each other concious, it's somewhere close to point sparring, but more then that. So the problem you're going to run into is that people are going to offer criticism on a short video fo some guys sparring lightly, and trying not to hurt each other, while trying to show that they can, and how they can hurt each other. I'm sure all the grapplers on this board could pipe in at any moment and shoot all sorts of holes for where they would throw takedowns and those sorts of things. I'm sure NHB guys could look at it and scoff because they aren't throwing good solid shots to the head or face where it counts.

In my opinion, this is probably pretty close to representative of how these guys would perform during your averae street fight - although they may have a hand up on their opponents. If you watch this fight and you watch the videos of street fights, you'll probably notice some similarities.

[fa_jing]

why speculate on what he's getting at? Why not state the opinion as your own?

I think a MMA-oriented criticism would be valid, actually, if a bit apples and oranges. What I've heard so far is "looks like kickboxing", "real Wing Chun would have defeated Mantis Guy easily", "Real Praying Mantis would have defeated Wing Chun guy easily" which is all a bunch of B.S.

"In my opinion, this is probably pretty close to representative of how these guys would perform during your average street fight "

If you mean would they use the same favorite moves, yes. If you mean the intensity and willingness to engage would be the same -- I certainly hope not.

[fa_jing]

You might as well call it "continous point sparring with no points and no judges" in terms of the intensity. It was a friendly testing of hands and not a demonstration. Shadow Boxer in Texas was making me clips out of some video I had, he put it together with the caption in the beginning. Personally I think they demonstrated their skills well, but I wouldn't sell the tape or put it up on the web without background info.

[red5angel]

f you watch street fights, most not all, I'd say you'll see a similar sort of behaviour, cautious probing attackes then an all out committal. I'm not making a statement on these guys in particular, what I'm saying is that if you pictured each one as fighting an oppnent at a bar or whatever, you'd probably see very similar performance except more committed.
As for who would win and what not, anyone who makes statements about this or that would win, is either too immature in their martial arts training to understand, mislead, or an idiot.

[PangQuan]

or all three

[fa_jing]

or all 4!! I mean um, ok.

[Samurai Jack]

So where's this video?

[PangQuan]

first post is in the wing chun section, dude double posted here as wing chun vs. praying mantis. it was closed due to double posting.

[5 Venoms]

I posted the clip of the Wing Chun vs. Mantis friendly sparring clip from my personal video. I have met both instructors. Both are formidable fighters. You said "I hope neither of these is representative of their style" What criticism are you levelling, exactly? How would you advise them to spar in a safe manner that's different from what you saw? Would you offer a sparring clip to demonstrate what you mean?

I ask because the level of criticism I have heard regarding this clip is bullsh!t, so far it's been entirely from people who would get their asses whipped by either practicioner.

People think that fighting is all perfect like you see in the movies, or that you can spar all out no gear without getting hurt. Let me ask you, did you see Frank Shamrock fall over executing a kick and getting his ass whupped on SpikeTV? Would you then say FS is a laughable representation of the MMA style? The man has won the UFC title many times as you should know. When people are of similar skills the fighting is not pretty and anything can happen.

Fa Jing,

First of all, can you clear something up for me...when you say that you've met "both instructors and they're formidable fighters", are you telling me that the 2 guys in the video are INSTRUCTORS??? Please tell me that's not right. Because if that's the case, they really have no right to be teaching at all! If you were trying to say that the 2 guys in the clip are students of the "formidable" instructors you know, then ok I can understand that. Maybe you were one of the guys in the video? If so it's ok don't be embarrassed to admit it.

I would have to say that both of those guys were beginners. Maybe neither of them had ever sparred someone from a style other than their own. They sure didnt show it if they had. Was the footage recorded as a training aid to be used in class?

I've trained in Wing Chun for 10 years, so I'm mainly looking at the WC opponent. I don't know a lot about Praying Mantis so I won't comment on that guy's technique. To be honest thought, the Praying Mantis guy was the only one who appeared to be using his training, although as I said it's obvious that they're both beginners.

So let me point out things about the Wing Chun opponent. What I could see were the WC principles: closing the distance, forward pressure, naturally adapting to the opponent's moves. However, he didn't have the technical skill to put the principles into motion. There were so many openings that were not taken into account (for both opponents not just the WC guy). No strong hand or foot technique. Little distance awareness. When they closed the gap, the WC guy allowed himself to get tangled up! And the most shocking thing to me, when they had actually CROSSED ARMS!! If he had any skill at all, he could have easily blown the other guy away! Come on you've got to admit it yourself unless you simply have no idea of what Wing Chun looks like in motion. And why on earth would a Wing Chun practicioner try to kick to the head, especially against a Northern stylist?? Do you not understand the nature of your art?

Overall, I would say that video is the perfect example of the importance of pressure testing techniques while learning them. I'm not putting either style down, I'm putting down the BS instructors who pass on garbage to students, don't teach them how to use what they've learned in a real situation, give them a false sense of what they can or cannot do and then hear about them getting their ass kicked! This has gone on for too long in martial art schools especially here in the US.

And as for what you said about Frank Shamrock, I didn't see the match in question but if he fell on his ass while trying to execute a kick to the head, then he shouldn't have even attempted the kick. Simple as that.

And for the comment about watching a kung fu movie and thinking that's how a real fight looks, I can't help but laugh. Believe me when I say that I've had to literally fight for my life, not in some lame sparring match or a cage with rules, but on the street with a gun pulled on me and my wife. And jumped by surprise when I was in the military overseas. So I'm the last person you need to try and tell what looks like a real fight and what doesn't. I'm not one of the other keyboard warriors here who talk a big game but have never left my parent's home, or had to live in the real world. And anyone who has seriously trained in Gung Fu, MMA, or any other type of fighting, and has attained any level of real skill, will look at that video and tell you the exact same things that I pointed out about the opponents.

[SevenStar]

please show us real skill - post clips of yourself...

[MoiFah]

Unfortunately, this is the bottom line in any traditional martial art, that's why when they go into a no holds barred fight they suck. TMA will work when the other person is unaware that you are about to employ your system of choice. When two martial artist of different styles square off there is little resemblence to what they learned in their respective schools.

[PangQuan]

May I ask what the agreed upon stipulations for this friendly little sparring session were? If we dont know that then we cant make too many asumptions.

I see your points venom. But I know personally I have had serious sparring sessions and then sessions that were pretty much just goofing around. In those ones that I goof off in with my kf friends, i dont always take every opening, nor do I try to blow them away. this may be a goofy one that just happend to be on film and then on the net.

You could argue, why do it if its not going to be full blast. A rebuttle could be. I could be sitting down at home, or practicing something else. If your a good practitioner, you will be able to draw experience from any type of training, no matter how large or small, serious or silly. so something is better than nothing.

They may simply have been tasting each others style. They may have said, "hey lets both go 20% and have some fun, ive never seen your style against mine, so lets take it with some salt."

but who knows. I dont. So im not going to try and see what may not be there.

just sayin,

[5 Venoms]

please show us real skill - post clips of yourself...

Don't have any video of myself but I'd be glad to show you in person if you're in my area?