What makes a style complete?

[Reggie1]

My opinion on this is similar to MP's.

It should address the following.

Striking, both hands and feet, with strategies for the different ranges (from outside kicking range to clinch range).
Stand-up grappling, including takedowns and throws and defending against them.
Groundfighting.

I don't think any one art can be completely proficient at all of these. I think each art 'specializes' in one of the above, maybe even two. But IMO it's not complete if it doesn't at least address all of these.

To me it can still be complete even if it is lacking in one area because a fighter in a certain art should be trying to force somebody else to do battle in their preferred range. For example, I'm a 7* mantis guy. We work predominantly on striking and standing throws. But we also do some work on the standing clinch, and have recently incorporated some groundwork into the mix.

Am I going to be an excellent groundfighter? No, but if I fight a BJJ stylist my goal is going to be to stuff his takedowns as much as possible, and when taken down search for an opening to get back on my feet.

[PaiLumDreamer]

Good replies from both viewpoints (technique/skill wise and more user-oriented.)

Its true that you have to enjoy and like what your style teaches for it to be complete, but how about this?

What about the trinity of body/spirit/mind?

How significant of a role is that in todays MA practice?

[PaiLumDreamer]

For me a martial art must have all three. Just working the body (and mind, since it taxes my brain just as much) will still leave me lacking a more spiritual side to life.

I personally believe we must have all three to be truly "healthy". Spirituality comes in a lot of different forms, since I will try to keep it nondemoninational.

A martial art is a way of life, right? It sure is a big part of all of ours, or why else would we spend time on an internet forum talking about this ?

So as a way of life (personally) I need all three, and my style has that.

One of my instructors recently said after class (we like to stay and talk sometimes) that once you start doing Kung Fu, its almost unavoidable to become more spiritual. You start looking deeper into things, etc.

Having these three makes my style complete, not to mention the fact it has a plethora of martial information. .


P.S.
I know that my idea of this wont fit for everyone, so when I say something needs something or that something is something, im just basing it off of personal experience.

[johnv]

I find it interesting that a lot of people's replies seem to make the assumption that "complete" refers only to concepts of fighting. I think all of those are valid, but for a martial art to be complete, I think it needs to address both the fighting and healing aspects. They are yin and yang to one another, and each is incomplete without the other. Not useless, but incomplete. Maybe this goes along with idea of mind/body/spirit...

[Merryprankster]

What about the trinity of body/spirit/mind?

It is impossible to attain the highest level of abilities in any art without this trinity, whether western or eastern.

The problem is that so many people turn this trinity into esoteric bull****.

[David Jamieson]

One could also question whether or not "spirit" even exists.

[PangQuan]

I compliment the style that I study. My style compliments me.

This is what makes my style "complete", to others this style will not be so. Such as for me other styles will not have the same feel.

[Face2Fist]

a complete style consist of :

striking, wrestling, grappling, conditioning, strengthing and reaction

[Yum Cha]

SPJ -
well said.

Completeness - get out your checklist and start checking it off? Reminds me of so many "single" 45 year old princesses I've known... keep chasing those ticks for the rest of your life, always looking for the better, more "complete" list and be ready for disappointment and unfulfilled expectations.

Strategy trumps technique. Strength/Fitness trumps technique. Intent trumps technique. Should this discussion of completeness focus on technique?

The completion comes from within. From the knowledge and use of what you have learned, not from the lessons themselves. And you could even add that any illusion of completion is by definition the lack thereof if you believe it is the journey, not the destination.

The story of the one single perfect technique is the best illustration yet. Perfection for one moment in space and time. Or perhaps simplified to, depth as opposed to breadth?

[Piercing Light]

Thanks for the re-direction and yes it was on almost the same topic.
But the questions that I have are still left unanswered.
I guess I am being a little more specific in asking are there CMA with grappling in it... (as I am ignorant of all the CMA out there).
Your last post about the 45yo Princess was funny but distracting from the point by casting a shadow and shows that we should stick with what we know and seek no further. For example advancements in science etc. would stand still.
I see Kung Fu more like a science, art and practice rather than the 45 yo princess analogy.
Agree in spirit with everything else you said though. But again you'd end up with only one technique and depending on the situation your trump card metaphor might not work.

On a personal level, I went through several martial arts before I found something that suited me and with the kinds of things which resonant with me. How about you?
If this is true for you then seeking answers is human nature and of a higher philosophical level that underlies the force of the human condition.

Thanks for the welcome Yum Cha, much appreciated.


http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=36512

Any anwers to the original post would still be greatly appreciated.

Piercing Light

[SPJ]

Looking for a complete or perfect fighting system that would defeat all.

This same question has been asked for thousands of years. It is not new at all.

There are some fundamental considerations.

1. It does not exist. There is a famous story. In the old time, there was a merchant that sells the best spear and shield. He said that his spear will penetrate everything and his shield will shield against everything. The customer then asked that how about using your all penetrating spear against your impenetrable shield. This is called Mao Dun 矛盾. Similarly, if you say that your move is the best, but what if the opponent uses your move against you. So for every poison designed, there is antidote cooked up, too. In the old time, if you design a move, you also design a countermove in pairs. That is why.

2. The simple one will defeat the complex one. This is inherent in machine and any warmachine. If you have few mechanical parts, there will be few breakdowns. If you want to build an airplane that can fly fast such as a fighter, and you also want to build a bomber that would carry a lot of bombs as a bomber, you know that you have to compromise the speed vs the weight or load. If you build something in the middle, it will be a slower fighter and a light bomber. The same ideas; if a technique is simple and more focused, it may be more effective in fight. A complex one may need more requirements to work. It will be easier to counter, too. You only have to remove one of many requirements. The complex technique will not work.

3. There is more than one countermove to any move. In Nature, there is always one thing to subdue the other. The bugs eat grass. The frogs eat bugs. The snakes eat frogs. The owls eat snakes. on and on. The fire burns the metal. The metal axes the wood. The water puts out the fire. The earth may bury the water. etc.

4. The rule of changes. From 26 alphabets, we derive more than 10,000 words. From 0 and 1, we have many digital files of texts, images and audio files. Even if you have only a few MA moves, you may change with them into so many sequences and combos.

There are more.

So when you are looking for a system that would defeat everything, remember at least the 4 factors above.

[Yum Cha]

People often try one art than another as they become martial artists, looking for the "the one" that really floats their boat. And, the final choice is different for everyone.

Perhaps completeness is simply that, what completes your experience with MA and enables you to commit your energies to a thorough study? The missing pieces for our individual puzzles.

I don't think Traditional arts are commodities. A half bag, a full bag, a bag and a half or whatever, I think they are much more sophisticated than that. People have mentioned mind, body, spirit; medicine; meditations; strategy; and likewise, technique sets, like groundfighting, striking, submission, or even kicking, punching, pressure point strikes, chi gung blasting, lightness, iron crotch (goes with Iron Palm for you wankers), etc...

As the story goes, the old boys at the shaolin temple had to break it up into "styles" because no one monk could learn it all in a lifetime. Has much changed? Oh yea, we don't nearly have as much time for training as those old pros did....

[Vasquez]

A complete style has lots of forms, traditions, conditioning, life teachings and other secrets and takes many years to master. Dim mak would be the prize at mastery level which would only be taught to the inheretors of the style.

[Mikkyou]

What I posted is a complete list of what every martial art should know.
Its great a person thinks there art is complete because they can kick,punch,and grapple.What makes an art complete is it's ability to cover all areas of defese from slipping and going into a breakfall,or someone throwing you onto a car. A martial artist should know how to roll to avoid and deal with situations where your opponent pushes you down a flight of stairs.A martial artist should be able to use anything as a weapon be it a modern,improvised,or classical.A martial artist should be able to bite,spit,pull hair tear the ear lobe and use any body part to defend.A martial artist should have some sort of groundgame wither it be just to throw him off the mount and get back up or to go for a submission this is important when dealing with the crazed out crack head who does not know what resistance or tapping means.I think all martial arts should be familar applying their joinlocks and throws against a partner who resist,counters with strikes,and counters the lock or throw thru other means.I think a martial art should have some idea of scenerio training with uses of verbal assult,thrown against a wall in restraint and so on.I know you can not cover every scenerio however having a basic fundamental of how ugly one can be it gives the student the reality of the art and it applications.So what really makes an art compelete is how you train in it applying what would really work if someone resisted or striked,and finding the holes in your art.

[Vasquez]

what about tradition, way of life and calmness within self?