What makes a style complete?

[SevenStar]

Books and church are good for learning, but application of principle requires physical action, especially in a ch'an/zen model. It doesn't have to be martial, but it can be if that's the path you choose.

I can't disagree with that. it's not a necessity for martial traning, however.

[ZIM]

Books and church are good for learning, but application of principle requires physical action, especially in a ch'an/zen model. It doesn't have to be martial, but it can be if that's the path you choose.

YEAH--- Convert or die!!!

[SevenStar]

what about tradition, way of life and calmness within self?

I'm about to sound the chi hippy alarm.

[SevenStar]

What I posted is a complete list of what every martial art should know.
Its great a person thinks there art is complete because they can kick,punch,and grapple.What makes an art complete is it's ability to cover all areas of defese from slipping and going into a breakfall,or someone throwing you onto a car. A martial artist should know how to roll to avoid and deal with situations where your opponent pushes you down a flight of stairs.A martial artist should be able to use anything as a weapon be it a modern,improvised,or classical.A martial artist should be able to bite,spit,pull hair tear the ear lobe and use any body part to defend.A martial artist should have some sort of groundgame wither it be just to throw him off the mount and get back up or to go for a submission this is important when dealing with the crazed out crack head who does not know what resistance or tapping means.I think all martial arts should be familar applying their joinlocks and throws against a partner who resist,counters with strikes,and counters the lock or throw thru other means.I think a martial art should have some idea of scenerio training with uses of verbal assult,thrown against a wall in restraint and so on.I know you can not cover every scenerio however having a basic fundamental of how ugly one can be it gives the student the reality of the art and it applications.So what really makes an art compelete is how you train in it applying what would really work if someone resisted or striked,and finding the holes in your art.

I dunno.... this is where theoretical applications are introduced. Sticking with the example above, you may be training with an instructor who has never been thrown in front of a car. If this is true, how can he teach you how to safely get out of the way? How can he relay the experience of being thrown in front of one? The same goes for striking and grappling. If I want to fight in the ring, I would not train under someone who has never stepped foot in one. Why? because he's not as equipped to teach me the complexities and nuances of being in a ring, as he's never been in one. His teacher may have been, or he may have studied many fighters, so ThEORETICALLY, he knows, but IMO, that's not good enough.

[Vasquez]

Fighters in the ring tend to be good atheletes but they lack spiritual content. I've even been to Thailand to learn the Ram Muay. The biggest difference is fighting with gloves and you can't do DM from TCMA. Ring fights tend to be tough man con test rather than skill.

[BibitClerus]

i disagree
how can you say they lack spiritual content?
you dont even know them dude

and while youre at it, explain to us what is this you call "spiritual content"

[BibitClerus]

good lyrics for you specially Vasquez:

once upon a time at the foot of a great mountain,
there was a town where the people known as happy folk lived.
their very existance a mystery to the rest of the world.
obscured, as it was, by great clouds.
here they played out their peaceful lives,
innocent of the litany of excessive violence that was growing in the world below.
to live in harmony with the spirit of the mountain called monkey was enough.
then one day, strange folk arrived in the town.
they came in camoflauge, hidden behind dark glasses, but no one noticed them.
they only saw shadows. you see, without the trick to the eyes
the happy folk were blind...

falling out of airplanes and hiding out in holes
waiting for the sunset to come, people going home
jump out from behind them and shoot them in the head
now everybody dancing, the dance of the dead
the dance of the dead. teh dance of the dead...

in time, the strange folk found their way into the higher reaches of the mountain,
and it was there that they found the caves of unimaginable sincerity and beauty.
by chance, they stumbled upon the place where all good souls come to rest.
the strange folk, they coveted the jewels in these caves above all things,
and soon they began to mine the mountain,
it's rich singing fueling the chaos of their own world.

meanwhile, down in in the town, the happy folk slept restlessly.
their dreams invaded by shadowy figures digging away at their souls.
every day, people would wake and stare at the mountain.
why was it bringing darkness into their lives?

and as the strange folk mined deeper and deeper into the mountain,
holes began to appear,
bringing with them a cold and bitter wind that chilled the very soul of the monkey.
for the first time, the happy folk felt fearful,
for they knew that soon the monkey would stir from it's deep sleep.
then there came a sound, distant first, that grew into gastrophryne so immense
that it could be heard far away in space
there were no screams, there was no time. the mountain called monkey had spoken.
there was only fire, and then,
nothing...

oh little town of USA, the time has come to see
there's nothing you believe you want
but where were you when it all came down on me?
did you call me out?

[Vasquez]

i disagree
how can you say they lack spiritual content?
you dont even know them dude

and while youre at it, explain to us what is this you call "spiritual content"

They don't have a broader philosphy to what they do, like the ying yang and the book of changes. all they try to do is try to punch harder and faster. pleasssse you make me laugh.

[Mikkyou]

you may be training with an instructor who has never been thrown in front of a car. If this is true, how can he teach you how to safely get out of the way?

Doesn't matter if you been thrown in front of a car or down a flight a stairs Ukemi(rolling,leaping,leap rolling,break faling,flips)is Ukemi no matter what
happens if you have correct Ukemi,Timing,Distancing,Taisabaki(body movement)than your body automatically adapts to it.Example given I never practiced diving over a 4ft hedge onto concrete before but since I have good enough Ukemi
I was able to.I once slipped backwards on a wet floor I don't practice slipping on wet floors however since I have good Ukemi I went with it and rolled safely.The same goes with Muto dori(taking away weapons)I never have taken an Ax from someone but the same ideas behind Mutodori would apply as if taking a Sword or Spear or Knife and so on.

If I want to fight in the ring, I would not train under someone who has never stepped foot in one. Why? because he's not as equipped to teach me the complexities and nuances of being in a ring, as he's never been in one. His teacher may have been, or he may have studied many fighters, so ThEORETICALLY, he knows, but IMO, that's not good enough.

When YOUR RING decides to allow people to use weapons,spiting,hair pulling,biting eye gouges and so on then perhaps we can discuss your style being compelete but if You are not training with someone using a weapon on you at full force than how you be sure you can defend against it.One day I decided to be sneaky with my training partner I hid a wooden knife in my back pocket He went in for the shoot I reached in my back pocket pulled out the knife let him take me down into the mount and as soon as he did i stuck the knife into his chest do you train like this in YOUR RING?

[Merryprankster]

Fighters in the ring tend to be good atheletes but they lack spiritual content. I've even been to Thailand to learn the Ram Muay. The biggest difference is fighting with gloves and you can't do DM from TCMA. Ring fights tend to be tough man con test rather than skill.

*******WARNING********

Snotty, TCMA, megacondescending obnoxiousness alert!

When YOUR RING decides to allow people to use weapons,spiting,hair pulling,biting eye gouges and so on then perhaps we can discuss your style being compelete but if You are not training with someone using a weapon on you at full force than how you be sure you can defend against it.One day I decided to be sneaky with my training partner I hid a wooden knife in my back pocket He went in for the shoot I reached in my back pocket pulled out the knife let him take me down into the mount and as soon as he did i stuck the knife into his chest do you train like this in YOUR RING?

Ah. Well when YOUR SCHOOL allows sharpened, live blades, trains on asphalt or in a crowded bar, and executes all of these things FULL FORCE, with NO REGARD for personal safety, then perhaps we can discuss what you do as being complete, real training.

Until then, you're just playing a game. See how easy that was?

WE ALL HAVE RULES people!!!! By its nature all training for physical combat is a simulation.

[Mikkyou]

I have seen schools use real blades in actual Mutodori situation(sometimes they get cut trying to disarm)I see no point using an actual live blade to train with
since a wooden one gives the same realistic applications(you can get the idea of getting cut and stabbed but live to train)We train on Asphalt sometimes again we like to try diffrerent types of floors unlike some people who roll on a nice comfortable mat(do you practice your break falls and groundwork on concrete?)
As for the bar kinda of difficult to train there however we can use the same close quarters that a bar provides.Now does your class offer grappling on concrete,
does it allow you to even work with weapons? does it allow you to work with throwing things at each other? What if I push you down a flight of stairs can you roll correctly to avoid injury?If I push you over broken glass can you leap roll over it?It's great you have experience in a controled ring enviroment with none of these varibles and tons of rules with a referee but you know what your playing in a sport period.

[David Jamieson]

um, to blanket out mma-ists as being non-spiritual is slightly myopic.

what are you studying? religion or martial arts? yin and yang are principles/concepts that apply to everyone whether we call it that or not, some people say positive/negative, weight/no-weight and so on.

I train both traditional martial arts including Ch'an, qigong, forms and augmentation as well as mma which is definitive application of the martial skills and the honing of them to fit into the actual practice of combat both sportive and pseudo-realistically.

in short, spirituality is not found in a martial art practice, it is within you if that is what you want to pursue. It is not something that will come to you because you practice one martial practice over another.

I used to go to martial arts classes for years and years to learn the martial art. If I want to learn philosphy then I'll learn philosophy. It is for the most part, NOT part and parcel to training in a traditional martial art and in my opinion it is a mistake to think so.

Yes, there is guiding principles that can map over to everyday life, but that can be said of anything.

anyway...my two cents fwiw

[ZIM]

As for the bar kinda of difficult to train there however we can use the same close quarters that a bar provides..

That's actually kinda interesting. Didn't Count Dante do this? IIRC, he had bars set up in his dojo, the students drinking & smoking, then all hell would break out....

...as far as the 'spirituality of MAs' goes, the funniest thing about that angle is how many MAs get it wrong anyway.

[Reggie1]

since a wooden one gives the same realistic applications(you can get the idea of getting cut and stabbed but live to train)

IMO a wooden weapon isn't balanced or weighted at all like a live steel one. Plus, in order to be TRULY realistic, instead of 'getting the idea' of being stabbed, in order to be completely realistic you should actually get stabbed and try and fight through the pain.

Of course, nobody wants to do that.

I think you missed MP's point. EVERYBODY trains w/ certain rules. MMA guys train only hand-to-hand. Some arts train w/ wooden weapons or padded weapons instead of live blades.

IMO an art doesn't need weapons to be complete. 99.9% of people in this day and age do not have the time available to them to become proficent at both weapons and hand-to-hand. People 400 years ago did.

[Mikkyou]

IMO a wooden weapon isn't balanced or weighted at all like a live steel one. Plus, in order to be TRULY realistic, instead of 'getting the idea' of being stabbed, in order to be completely realistic you should actually get stabbed and try and fight through the pain.

I picked up a knife and a wooden knife
same balance same weight same shape.I would say this a knife is a knife the same defense you use against a wooden one a plastic one a butter knife or a blade with an edge is the same(we are training principles,concepts)If we actually
stabbed each other bled then its not training is it?!Then it becomes attempted murder.

EVERYBODY trains w/ certain rules. MMA guys train only hand-to-hand. Some arts train w/ wooden weapons or padded weapons instead of live blades.

Ok but the rules of no eye gouging,no hair pulling,no biting,no using small joint manipluation,no elbows to the head no spitting,no pulling the ears leaving so many varibles out this is not hand to hand this is sporting with rules to win same as soccer.see your confusing rules with realstic training.
RULES=An agreement between 2 or more parties on what each party can and can not do.REALSTIC TRAINING=An enviroment set to simulate actual combat where anything is allowed in place but certain things are substitued to mimic similar effects.FIGHTING=A confortantion betwen 2 or more parties where anything is allowed and there are no subsitutions of any sort.Now MMA uses Rules
I used the defination of Realstic training.Those who engage in street fights are fighting see the difference?

IMO an art doesn't need weapons to be complete. 99.9% of people in this day and age do not have the time available to them to become proficent at both weapons and hand-to-hand.

A person should have a basic understanding oh how to use a stick to defend himself and a person should have a basic understanding on how to deal with someone with a beer bottle about to be broken over his head these are weapons and if you only train hand to hand well guess what the person who knows how to use the weapon is going to have the upper hand nuff said.