Wing Chun - What if the Enemy doesn't stick?

[cha kuen]

I respect wing chun and I think it's a great art. However, there's one thing that's been bugging me. What if your enemy doesn't stick? If a quick boxer runs in circles throwing fakes and jabs all day, what does wc do? I know that the WC guy can charge and eat up space to get in his fighting range... but what if it's a big open area? Any thoughts?

[Metallica]

Hi Cha Kuen,

If you don't mind, can you tell me what style do you for a start?

Wing Chun as in any martial art have both contact training and non contact training.
Despite being known for its medium to close range techniques, Wing Chun training encompasses all the range starting from long range to medium range to close range.

To answer your question: what if the opponent does not stick?
In Wing Chun, if the opponent does not stick, we will just hit, or we can force the opponent to stick, even for a split second. Remember, we do not stick for just the sake of sticking, we stick with objectives in our mind, and the objective is to knock the opponent down in the shortest time as possible
Well trained Wing CHun guy does not have to rely on sticking all the type, he can even purposely destroy any bridge contact.

Your second question: what if it is an open area?
Not sure where are you going with this, but I think environmental factor does not matter. Regardless of the style, one should be able to fight in open area, back alleys, in a bar or anywhere else. So, I don't see the point of you asking such question.

[tsb]

Cha Kuen,

Please elaborate on the situation you have in mind and the attacker's tactics when you refer to a "big open area".

Thanks

[El_CLap]

Hmm...guessing I'd think he's referring to someone who won't actually engage who just runs. Someone you have to chase. Usually I chase them into a wall if necessary, but if it's an open area then it's impossible.

[tsb]

Why would you need to defend yourself against someone who is simply going to run away from you?

[El_CLap]

By running I don't mean running away. I mean backing out of striking range, only to jab again later.

[tsb]

I believe that if your footwork is strong enough, sticking and moving forward as they retreat should be possible. When watching pro boxers, the separation after an exchange is usually small enough that following and sticking is possible.

[Sihing73]

If an opponent engages even for a moment it is possible to bridge with him. Also it is usually faster to go forward then to go backwards. A fast opponent who gets in and jabs can be a problem but only if you lack the mobility to engage once he jabs.

Peace,

Dave

[cha kuen]

Wc reacts and tries to bridge against a jab? I train northern shaolin and mantis. I have seen a few wing chun guys from the Bay Area WC group. Most of the time, I only see WC as a close fighting style. That's why I brought up the " open area." In an open area, a WC guy may have a hard time getting into his range because the boxer or enemy can be moving in constant circles while the WC guy charges in straight lines. Does WC go with a BIL TZE against a jab to get in?

[Sihing73]

Hi cha kuen,

WC may indeed go with a Bui Tze against a jab. However herein lies the problem; You can become caught up in the game of chasing the hands. WC teaches one to attack the center, or other areas too [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] , if the hands are not a threat to me and do not hinder my attack then I strike. If the hands interefere then I bridge and nuetralize them, then strike. There are many options available to deal with a jab, you can move your body or step, yes, WC does both of these things [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

As to WC being a close range system, this is essentially correct. Still, once contact is made, the range is right to apply techniques. In other words, WC has kicks and long range movements as well, we just like to get a little closer [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

If you are in an open area and have an opponent who tries to hit and run then you need to be good at facing and stay mobile. But, remember, WC does not chase hands. If the opponent attacks and is too far away to hit me, why should I react? He must close to striking range to do me any harm. Once there, the opportunity to bridge is there. Then it becomes a game of who is better trained. Too often, many WC people become rigid and immobile, then an opponent who likes ot move and jab can be a problem. The failing is not in the system but in the practicianer. Believe me, I used to be rigid, accoridng to my current instructor I still am [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Don't get caught up playing the opponents game. If he wants to dance wait, sooner or later he must come to you. When he does, be nice and give him something to remember you by [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Peace,

Dave

[vingtsunstudent]

with the hands in centre most boxers i have encountered tend to be unsure of how to enter & use their jab as you are in centre,i don't if is a subconscious thing that they no they have to go around you or not but i have found they can actually find it hard to enter with thier jab.
if they do use it,it can be quite easy to follow it back in as they tend to return the hand straight back to alongside the face.
the hole thing can also come down to your comitment to enage as soon as he /she even looks like moving into your range(which he must do if he is to even use his jab let alone any other strike)
by the way if you don't mind me asking who said that a wing chun man only charges in straight lines?
angles of attack(and defence)are very important in wing chun,also if you think a wing chun man will only stand still & make themself an easy target then you have also been, unfortunatly, misinformed.a good wing chun man will even to a degree look like a boxer when moving but without all the bouncing around due to fact we like to keep our feet firmly on the ground(among other reasons).also in wing chun the preffered stepping method is to shuffle.the problem that can come with bouncing around can be if your caught half way through the movement it is a lot easier to be knocked down.an interesting note is that in the old days boxers also used to shuffle due the fact that they fought on uneven surfaces with shoes with very hard soles that would in no way have allowed for the bouncing that you see in the ring today.
today they have rubber soles on canvas that would make it near impossible for them to shuffle.
biu jee wouldn't be the method of attack unless there was a reason to use technics from this form(again there are many reasons why you would or wouldn't use biu jee but unfortunatly i don't have half the night spare). most technics would come from the first form with movements from the second also being extremely vital with an opponent who can move very well.
sorry i forgot to add that if he moves around throwing lots of fakes,he will again at some stage have to come into your range as well,won't he?
a good wing chun man in, all honesty, should be straight onto him the very first time he moves into range or even just as soon as he moves period.
like i just said the moment he moves into range you should be all over him but if he is exceptionally quiuck you would just let him move around and waste his own energy because if he truely does want to fight he will come back into range anyway.
good post & cool question
vts

[Wah Ren Jie]

Hey guys!!! Just a question. I don't study Wing chun, but I respect it a lot. In your opinion, what do you fell is the average amount of time it takes to use the system somewhat effectively? Peace.

[Sihing73]

Hi sei ping dai ma,

The answer to this question will vary from school to school and the intent or focus of those teaching. In my first WC class we did nothign but forms for the first six (6) months with no contact. However, my second school began contact trainging my first night.

I woudl tend to say that a person could be reasonably proficient in using WC for defense within six (6) months of serious training. However, I would caution that there is a lot more to be grasped and will require a much longer committment. Still, for basic fighting ability six months would seem a good average.

Peace,

Dave

[cha kuen]

What can you use in the 6 months of training for self defense? Is it the chain punching or?

[Sihing73]

cha kuen,

I owuld expect a student of mine to be able to utilze the chain punching, although that is hardly something I would concentrate on. I would expect him to be able to use Gaun Da, Pak Da and Taun Da with side stepping and stance turning. I believe that these three core movements will enable him to defend against many of the techniques he will encounter on the street. Of course, there is more to it than just these three but these would be the core upon which i would build the rest.

Peace,

Dave