Page 28 of 44 FirstFirst ... 18262728293038 ... LastLast
Results 406 to 420 of 649

Thread: Bruce Lee vs. Wong Jack Man fight

  1. #406
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Posts
    555
    The one thing I have discovered is that what I have learned as JKD, allows a certain amount of breathing room when it comes to incorporating things one might learn from other styles, as long as you maintain that "JKD structure." All things aside Jerry Poteet has told me "if you are always thinking of hitting, then you are doing it correctly," and Bruce's words: "efficiency is anything that scores." JKD is about fighting first and foremost, and then it's about knowing yourself while fighting.

  2. #407
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Posts
    555
    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    The "system" that was Bruce Lees was "Jun Fan Kung Fu"
    the JKD was as Sanjuro states, but was not systematized, no sets, nothing there that didn't apply to any martial arts from Bruces understaning of them etc.

    FWIW Jun Fan was Bruce's actual name IE : Lee Jun Fan. Bruce was his American name.

    It would be like if a guy named Ted opened a Kung Fu school and called it "Ted's Kung Fu" same/same.

    And yes, BL was junior classmate to William Cheung who was senior student of Ip Man. Bruce is said to have learned a little more than half the style of Wing Chun and he dabbled in a bunch of other stuff.
    His primary interest was obviously making movies and being a movie star.
    Yes, that's true to some extent, but he stopped using the term "Jun Fan Gung Fu" later on because he was trying to get away from traditional styles, Dan Inosanto started using the term in the late '70s and into the '80s because he promised to Bruce Lee never to openly teach "Jeet Kune Do" so Inosanto used it as means to teach JKD without calling it that, that he wouldn't feel as if he broke his promise to his teacher.

    I totally disagree with movie making aspect to a degree, he only focused on movies/TV towards the last 5-6 years of his life, and it was to get across his philosophy to a wide audience. It's interesting watching his movies after exploring Bruce's philosophy to a greater degree.

  3. #408
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Canada!
    Posts
    23,110
    Quote Originally Posted by Fa Xing View Post
    Yes, that's true to some extent, but he stopped using the term "Jun Fan Gung Fu" later on because he was trying to get away from traditional styles, Dan Inosanto started using the term in the late '70s and into the '80s because he promised to Bruce Lee never to openly teach "Jeet Kune Do" so Inosanto used it as means to teach JKD without calling it that, that he wouldn't feel as if he broke his promise to his teacher.

    I totally disagree with movie making aspect to a degree, he only focused on movies/TV towards the last 5-6 years of his life, and it was to get across his philosophy to a wide audience. It's interesting watching his movies after exploring Bruce's philosophy to a greater degree.
    He was 33 when he died... He really was all about making movies and burst onto the American scene in 1973 with Enter the Dragon. He had a hit in Hong Kong and that's what led to that. He worked for a year on teh Green Hornet and spent a lot of time looking for jobs as an actor in Hollywood. He didn't spend his time becoming a fighter an didn't focus anywhere near as much on that as he did on movies, hanging out with movies stars etc.

    He was essentially a pretty young guy who was a champion cha cha dancer who exploited the rise of asian martial arts in america as his inroad.
    If he really wanted to be a fighter, then he would have done that don't your think? I mean, a few demos here and there, no fights in any organized way, no fight record, no wins over anyone of any significance....well, it doesn't add up when you consider he invested all his time in theatrics and got the break.

    he lost teh break when he had The Silent Flute (Circle of Iron) scooped out from under him and with that, the TV series Kung Fu which wound up going to David Carradine because of prevalent institutionalized racist attitudes in teh 1970s that held Asian out of movies and tv for ages.

    Bruce's philosophy was completely borrowed and consisted of a blend of Confucian and Taoist phrases and ideas.
    Of interesting note is the lack of material he did on "Shaolin". That always struck me as a little odd. His Kung Fu stuff was always gangster based triad / tong stuff. Ip Man, his teachers teacher was a retired ex HK cop with a bit of an opium problem. Probably where his(BLs) ideas about kung fu came from in a lot of ways.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  4. #409
    In fairness, I know a number of people who have done stunt work and movie work who do kung fu.

    None of them would have a job if they did not train a lot more than your average martial artist. Most of the source material tends to support the idea that Bruce Lee was rather obsessive about training, even, maybe especially, compared to many of his contemporaries in martial arts.

    Additionally, he had some rather well known competitive fighters who trained under him, more than any kung fu stylist of his time that I am familiar with. I don't think that they were just duped, I think they saw value in what he did.

    That said, I do think he was his own worst enemy in a way.

  5. #410
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    22,250
    Bruce knew His ****.
    That the top MA of his time thought he was very good, speaks volumes.
    I don't think he was as revolutionary as many think he was, I think he was simply more open to common sense and what TRULY was the tradition of kung fu than many of his TCMA contemporaries.
    I think that because he loved to read and study MA histories that he realized that the REAL tradition of MA is physical fitness AND fighting and if you don't do both you are NOT a MA.
    He realized that the great MA of the past ALL cross trained and ALL cross tested their MA and developed their OWN systems of fighting.
    He followed suit.
    There is a lesson there.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  6. #411
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Canada!
    Posts
    23,110
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Bruce knew His ****.
    That the top MA of his time thought he was very good, speaks volumes.
    Did he? Did they?
    Here's an article that in a nutshell tells the truth, isn't mean or rude, just the truth.
    http://shootafairone.wordpress.com/2...-myth-vs-fact/
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  7. #412
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    CA, USA
    Posts
    4,900
    BL was a child actor in HK before he came back to America at 18. His father was a Cantonese opera singer and actor. So while BL did want to spread his MA philosophies later on through TV/film, it can't be denied that acting/performing on camera was in his blood, and that he enjoyed it for its own sake as well. It's clear that BL had basically two areas of aptitude in his life; acting/performing, and MA.

    Because people have built him up so much, they've projected their own expectations onto him. That's their fault. obviously, I never met him, and no, I don't think he was "the greatest fighter"; but he clearly had something for top MAists of his time to have listened to, respected and learned from him (and in turn, he from them). But I'm willing to bet his abilities still FAR exceeded most "average Joe Blow MA guys". Just because he wasn't a top fighter doesn't mean he didn't know his stuff.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 06-17-2014 at 01:03 PM.

  8. #413
    The problem I see with that article is that it really is better examined as a means of not hero-worshiping than a real critique of BL.

    I mean, when you use Kareem's statement that Bruce had difficulties dealing with the size difference as disproof of BL's ability, I think you run into a problem. I don't know anyone who regularly spars under that large a size difference. I'd need to find a 9' tall guy to even make it happen.

    Also, the film speed thing. BL was pretty quick, compared with contemporaries also filmed on old cameras. I'm not saying he is the end all be all, but the same criticisms of BL that are in that article can be better applied to 99% of the tma teachers of that era.

    Yes, he did not become a ring fighter, but he had major ring fighters training regularly with him. And compared with footage of his contemporaries, I am not seeing a guy whose kung fu was deficient. Of course, there are areas he was not as skilled at. Of course, there were others in that era that had skills that he did not.

    Nonetheless, I still can't name a kung fu sifu from that era with as many full contact champions who felt their class was worth their time.

  9. #414
    I'm willing to say that he was better than the average sifu, at least as far as striking goes. His students had more contact experience than most kung fu practitioners. More than teachers, in some lines.

    This is not to say he was the best, but he was better than a lot of people.

    Again, martial artists working in film are under tremendous pressure to maintain skills and add new skills. More than most teachers. And they tend to have far more exposure to different methods than most martial artists.

  10. #415
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    CA, USA
    Posts
    4,900
    Quote Originally Posted by Faux Newbie View Post
    Nonetheless, I still can't name a kung fu sifu from that era with as many full contact champions who felt their class was worth their time.
    Good points.

    To be fair, however, most CMA teachers at that time were not actively going out and socializing with the American MA/sport karate community as BL did. BL was VERY outgoing and liked to show off, expound on MA, and associate/train with all types of MAists. Very different from your typical Chinese sifu, especially back then. In the 1960s, relatively little was even known about most CMA among Western MAists to begin with.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 06-17-2014 at 01:15 PM.

  11. #416
    Reality #1: the cult of Bruce Lee makes it impossible to discuss the issue without it turning into a SH I T storm

    Reality #2: Bruce's early death means that we have a "James Dean" phenomenon AND of course, his close friends remember him fondly and few are willing to "speak ill" of the dead

    Reality #3: a lot of people have a vested interest in the Bruce Lee image. Inosanto IS a great martial artists, but never forget that before Bruce became a movie star, he was a PE and driver's ED teacher. HIs relationship to Bruce meant people who wanted to travel from across the world to study with him, pay him to do seminars, to do books, etc..... Chuck Norris owes his entire film career to Bruce...

    Reality #4: the harshest of all, we forget just how limited and downright PATHETIC martial arts were on this side of the planet when Bruce was here. Joe Lewis spent ONE YEAR in Okinawa and was given a black belt. No one had seen spinning kicks until Chuck Norris came back from his stint in Korea. Peter urban was quoted as saying "everyone was so ignorant, I could, and did, teach whatever I wanted, whatever I could make up, and no one questioned me". We were still talking about "Judo chops" and though an Asian trained in martial arts was magical
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  12. #417
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Boulder, CO
    Posts
    1,508
    That is IMHO the best post you've ever written.
    To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders.
    -Patanjali Samadhi


    "Not engaging in ignorance is wisdom."
    ~ Bodhi


    Never miss a good chance to shut up

  13. #418
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    22,250
    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    Did he? Did they?
    Here's an article that in a nutshell tells the truth, isn't mean or rude, just the truth.
    http://shootafairone.wordpress.com/2...-myth-vs-fact/
    That article doesn't disprove or counter what I posted.
    In fact it lends validity to it since he was viewed as a good teacher.
    Note I never mentioned that he was a fighter, just a MA that knew his stuff.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  14. #419
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    22,250
    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    Reality #1: the cult of Bruce Lee makes it impossible to discuss the issue without it turning into a SH I T storm

    Reality #2: Bruce's early death means that we have a "James Dean" phenomenon AND of course, his close friends remember him fondly and few are willing to "speak ill" of the dead

    Reality #3: a lot of people have a vested interest in the Bruce Lee image. Inosanto IS a great martial artists, but never forget that before Bruce became a movie star, he was a PE and driver's ED teacher. HIs relationship to Bruce meant people who wanted to travel from across the world to study with him, pay him to do seminars, to do books, etc..... Chuck Norris owes his entire film career to Bruce...

    Reality #4: the harshest of all, we forget just how limited and downright PATHETIC martial arts were on this side of the planet when Bruce was here. Joe Lewis spent ONE YEAR in Okinawa and was given a black belt. No one had seen spinning kicks until Chuck Norris came back from his stint in Korea. Peter urban was quoted as saying "everyone was so ignorant, I could, and did, teach whatever I wanted, whatever I could make up, and no one questioned me". We were still talking about "Judo chops" and though an Asian trained in martial arts was magical
    We can't separate Bruce from his era.
    Hence me saying that he was that revolutionary at all.
    That said, for HIS TIME and looking back to what was being done by others, he was at least smarter than most in regards to preaching what works, what needs to be done and the importance of actually fighting, testing and being in fighting shape.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  15. #420
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Canada!
    Posts
    23,110
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    That article doesn't disprove or counter what I posted.
    In fact it lends validity to it since he was viewed as a good teacher.
    Note I never mentioned that he was a fighter, just a MA that knew his stuff.
    wasn't going for the disprove. Just a perspective from a guy that I also happen to share for the most part regarding the subject.
    I think for what it was at the time. It's all good. The problems do come from the hero worship as far as true optics go.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •