Bruce Lee vs. Wong Jack Man fight

[boxerbilly]

Anyway, this is what happens when a country goes belly up. We keep them in the game.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2008/09/15/...gest-bailouts/

No one legit wants the US or China to go belly up. Lots of consumers . Understand ?

I don't even consider idiots that want to go back to biblical historical times. I eat pork. Hey, something I share in common with my Chinese brothers.

[MysticNinjaJay]

I recently saw a video that made me decide to revisit this topic.

https://www.facebook.com/Wataaaah/vi...7000127581421/

In the video Linda Lee Cadwell recalls the fight between Bruce Lee and Wong Jack Man. She tells the same story she has been telling for years but this video seems to be a rebuttal to Rick Wing's book "Showdown in Oakland" because she specifically mentions that people have written about the fight and that she was an eye witness to what happened (which is disputed in the book). She also insists that she can remember the fight clearly in her head and repeats the Chinese words that Bruce Lee said to Wong Jack Man asking him, "Do you give up?"

Does anyone here know Cantonese? I tried to determine whether what Linda says Bruce Lee said in the video was accurately translated by her. Looking back in the book Rick Wing does say that when Wong Jack Man slipped on the floor Bruce Lee went in to attack and demanded that he admit defeat saying in Cantonese, "Admit you lost! Say it! Admit you lost!" but rather than Wong admitting defeat the book says they were promptly separated by Wong's associates who felt the fight was getting out of hand. Wing's book is very well researched, full of sources and for the most part reasonable. I felt that his account of why the fight happened (Bruce Lee challenged any Martial Artist in Chinatown to fight him and Wong Jack Man accepted to test himself) far more credible that Linda's claim that Bruce Lee angered the Chinese masters in the area who insisted that he not teach Westerners Kung Fu. This position is especially credible considering there is documentation of non-Chinese including Whites learning from Chinese Martial Artists in the area. However the account of the fight in the book is less credible to me. The length they say the fight lasted, 20-25 minutes, is absurd as is the idea that Wong Jack Man treated it like a sparring match and Bruce Lee treated it like a real fight with no rules in which he could fight all out and as dirty as he wanted. The fight was that long and they only grazed each other. Wong Jack Man's claim to estimate the number of strikes Bruce Lee threw and claiming he avoided using kicks because he felt they were too deadly was laughable. The description of the fight also reads like a something out of a Kung Fu novel with graceful dodging and parrying by Wong Jack Man who fought defensively against a Bruce Lee that attacked like a ferocious beast, Wong Jack Man being generous enough to let Bruce Lee out of dominant positions, Wong Jack Man landing the absolute best shot of the fight that staggered Bruce (Bruce didn't land anything damaging in 20-25 minutes? Mind you these are accounts by Wong Jack Man associates being promoted by his students) and Wong Jack Man slipping on a raised portion of the floor which is coincidentally similar to Linda's account of Wong being taken down to the floor by Bruce and pounded in to a state of demoralization prompting him to verbally submit.

On the other hand Linda's account seems much more credible which is also consistent with what Bruce Lee said. The fight lasted 3 minutes, there was a brief exchange, Wong started running around the room to evade Bruce and Bruce exhausted himself by first chasing Wong then nearly punching himself out hitting him on the ground along the head and back which hurt his fists. The length of time is short enough for the fight to be realistic but long enough for a fighter to tire himself out if he over exerted himself. I also point out that in Bruce Lee's account he wasn't happy at all with his performance and committed himself to extreme physical fitness which people who trained with him state that he was fanatical about to the point of obsession (and over training) as well as learning new techniques to improve his skills as he felt Wing Chun was inherently flawed and impractical in a real fight as are many classical Martial Arts disciplines (which is fully recognized now by much of the Martial Arts community due to observing fights in full-contact competition with limited rules).

The contrast between the accounts of the fight are striking....

1. Bruce Lee and Linda Lee Cadwell's account: They describe a fight with a realistic length and outcome in which Bruce Lee while the clear victor is critical of his own performance for being sloppy, exhausted and hurting his hands prompting him to be a more efficient and conditioned Martial Artist.

2. Wong Jack Man and his associates' account: The fight has an unrealistic length and bizarre description in which Wong Jack Man is passive and restrictive in his approach to the fight and somehow doesn't understand the nature of the fight until he is attacked with cheap shots (finger jabs to the eyes before joining hands and groin kicks from Bruce Lee who was so aggressive Wong contemplated killing him in self-defense yet still held back). There is no self-reflection on the part of Wong Jack Man. He simply fought a graceful and controlled fight against a violent opponent until he slipped and his associates interfered because they believed it was supposed to be a sparring match that was getting out of hand.

The aftermath of the fight with the newspaper wars is even more bizarre (e.g. false accounts of the fight being over a girl with demands that statements be retracted and calls for a public rematch). Interestingly there is a video by Leo Fong recounting the fight which is consistent with Jesse Glover's claim that Bruce Lee tracked Wong Jack Man down and confronted him at the restaurant where he worked as a waiter which caused Wong to spill the tea he was pouring:



Jesse Glover and Leo Fong are friends of Bruce Lee who admit they didn't see the fight but only heard it from Bruce Lee but the consistency of their story is interesting. The only major differences are that Fong says Bruce Lee and a friend went to the restaurant and I didn't hear him say anything about Wong Jack Man running to hide in the kitchen but the testimony is interesting nonetheless.

Comparing the different accounts of this fight are interesting. I was provided Rick Wing's email by someone at his school through Facebook and emailed him to ask questions but didn't get a reply. I don't expect a reply but I may try to contact Linda Lee Cadwell.

By the way has anyone seen the movie Birth of the Dragon? I heard it got bad reviews. I tried to find it online but could not.

[David Jamieson]

Pretty sure your skin colour has nothing to do with whether or not you practice a skill and have any talent at it.
Just saying. Take it easy with the "race" horsesh1t fellas. It's unbecoming of a kung fu man to limit himself with such petty observations.

y'all bleed the same colour and your bones make the same sound when they snap.

[rogue]

Holy smokes, this thread is still going on?

[GeneChing]

Holy smokes, this thread is still going on?

This thread will never die.

That being said, I should mention that this topic comes up yet again in my interview article ‘Uncle’ Allen Joe Remembers Bruce Lee in our March+April 2017 issue.

[Vash]

*Facebook thumbs up emoji*

[bawang]

Wong jak min won mentally.

[hskwarrior]

you are all very stupid. Wong Jack Man had Bruce killed. Bruce and his son are DEAD. Wong Jack Man is still alive. 'Nough said

[MysticNinjaJay]

Who else has seen Birth of the Dragon? I know the Bruce Lee family disapproved of it however I thought that it was great as a Martial Arts film. All of the talk of White-washing and racist stereotypes about Asians are false. The movie was entertaining and provided a good portrayal of Eastern philosophy. I could tell that the story was heavily inspired by the book Showdown in Oakland. I hear that Shannon Lee is working on another Bruce Lee biopic. The portrayal of Bruce Lee in Birth of the Dragon is understandably controversial however I recommend this film for fans of Martial Arts movies.

[GeneChing]

Who else has seen Birth of the Dragon?

I saw it and reviewed it on our Birth of the Dragon thread, as is my modus operendi.

Did you just see it on VOD? I heard it was just released there.

[MysticNinjaJay]

I saw it and reviewed it on our Birth of the Dragon thread, as is my modus operendi.

Did you just see it on VOD? I heard it was just released there.

Someone told me on Youtube that it was available on Amazon Prime. I found it in high quality on a torrent site yesterday. I will buy it on Bluray from Amazon when it comes out.

[Jimbo]

Not involving Wong Jack-Man, but I thought this might be of interest to some following this thread. About a rumored fight in 1972 in HK involving Bruce Lee, against a supposed boxer and Cha Kuen (Cha Chuan) stylist named Lau Tat-Chuen:

https://www.network54.com/Forum/2569...0%99s+76th+BD)

[GeneChing]

BRUCE LEE'S FIGHT TO SPREAD THE ART OF KUNG FU IN AMERICA
BY NEWSWEEK SPECIAL EDITION ON 12/14/17 AT 7:10 AM

This article, along with others on the magnificent life and iconic career of actor and martial arts master Bruce Lee, is featured in Newsweek's Special Edition: Bruce Lee.

"Mere technical knowledge is only the beginning of kung fu; to master it, one must enter into the spirit of it,” explained Bruce Lee.

As an instructor of this sacred Chinese practice, his initiative was to teach anyone that demonstrated skill, as well as the commitment to learn the art, regardless of their heritage or background. When Bruce opened his studio in Oakland, California, in 1964, he hoped it could be a place free of animosity, with students bonding together over a common dedication to kung fu. To sustain this sanctuary, he put a regulation in place within his institute, which implored students to keep the techniques they learned from Bruce to themselves. His hope was by keeping his school under the radar, he could avoid raising the ire of rival schools.

Despite Bruce’s efforts to avoid any tension with nearby kung fu studios, trouble arose in December 1964. The traditional martial arts community objected to him teaching Westerners, whom they considered to already have a natural upper hand in terms of size and strength. They also did not approve of him sharing the “secrets” of their esteemed art to those who were not of Chinese descent. In order to stop Bruce from giving away what they saw as their culture’s sacred secrets, they issued the young upstart a challenge: If a kung fu master of their choosing could defeat Bruce in battle, he would have to stop teaching kung fu to non-Chinese. Their champion was another kung fu master called Wong Jack Man.

Wong had recently arrived from Hong Kong and was teaching across the bay from Bruce in San Francisco. This formidable master enjoyed a greater reputation than the young Bruce as a practitioner of kung fu, and he was looking to make a name for himself in the U.S. Wong boldly marched into Bruce’s own school and presented him with a written challenge to fight.

The duel took place in a small Oakland studio. The small number of eyewitnesses on hand has helped contribute to the mystery surrounding the exact, blow-by-blow details of the battle, but most agree it was an all-out exchange that left both combatants exhausted. Near the end of the fight, Wong reportedly turned to run but was intercepted, and Lee took the opportunity to begin punching him on the back of his head. In a 1976 issue of Black Belt magazine a friend of Bruce’s quoted him as saying, “I chased him and, like a fool, kept punching his head and back; my fists were already swelling from his hard head. Then, I did something I’d never done before: I put my arm round his neck and knocked him on his ass. I kept whacking him as he lay on the floor—until he gave up.”

Bruce’s victory ensured the continuation of his teaching kung fu to all worthy enough to accept his lessons, and it helped solidify his place as one of the art form’s greatest champions.

This article written by Editorial Assistant Amber Blossman was excerpted from Newsweek Special Edition: Bruce Lee. For more on the life and legacy of the timeless legend pick up a copy today.

Bruce Lee Memorials

Bruce Lee vs. Wong Jack Man fight

[ShaolinDan]

Newsweak.

Sad what can be passed off as journalism.

[ChungQuanMan]

I know I am really late to the party...and my comments below may have already been expressed in some form (haven't read all of the prior replies)...

It is truly difficult to know exactly what did happen that night...we do not have video or even pictures - and the best evidence, credible eyewitnesses, gets tricky quite quickly. I also admit that my bias is positive toward Wong Jack Man and rather negative toward Bruce Lee. I appreciate Lee for his athelticism and his promotion of martial arts in the "spotlight" of flim...but I don't have much appreciatation for him as purely a martial artist.

Overall, I recommend this (biased, of course) work regarding the fight: https://www.amazon.com/Showdown-Oakl...ruce+Lee+Fight

With that preface, a few considerations...

1. Of the two, who (seems completely) changed their approach to martial arts and their training? That would be Lee.. (You don't typically change what works).

2. Which one became a GM at the age of 25? That would be Wong...

3. Who did not complete their formal training? That's Lee...(As far as I know, all he had to go on was some amount of Wing Chun from Ip Man and street brawl experience)

4. My understanding is that Lee wanted the fight kept quiet but then spoke out boldly after the fight. Wong, who is still alive, has remained relatively quiet about the fight over the years. Is this due to Wong's fear or humility?

5. It is also my understanding, based on the testimony of GM Ming Lum (a friend of Lee's) that Wong came to work the day after the night of the fight - and only one cut near his eyes (From an opening pear hand from Lee?). But Lee supposedly beat Wong into submission?

6. Who expressed that, if there was another fight between them, that it would need to be public? I think that would be Wong...

7. If Wong lost to Lee in the way some describe, then why didn't this event become big news in Chinatown at the time?

8. I recall that Lee's wife observed that after the fight Bruce was sitting on the back porch all depressed with his head in his hands.

9. From the testimony of George Lee, it may be that Linda was not even in the room for the fight, but peeked in some.

Intersting page: http://www.jadedragonalaska.com/bruc...lost-fight.php