Bruce Lee vs. Wong Jack Man fight

[David Jamieson]

All these years later and people still can't get it straight.

Typical.

lol

[LaterthanNever]

YutseeYam,

I could but what's the point? I already know the theme of the book: Bruce lost.
It's like a movie spoiler..once you know the plot and the way things went down..what's the entertainment value


"The reason why this fight has historical and cultural relevance is because it changed BL, it changed his perspectives on how he felt the MA's should be studied, practiced, thought about, and executed."

Indeed. For that it is relevant. It's also possible that there were other factors in Bruces' development which changed his perspective too.

SLF has very different motives it comes thru loud and clear!

Sillimfighter,

Devils advocate here. Let me ask you a question..imagine this scenario ok?

Imagine that the popular view up to this point was NOT that Bruce won the match, but that he LOST. Imagine also, that Bruce were still alive and Master Wong Jack man were the one this time, who was deceased.

Let that settle in for a sec..ok?

Wouldn't you be wondering if a former student of Bruces decides to engage in a smear campaign against Master WJM by running to the kfo forum and saying "guess what..WJM lost the fight...and then..and then..and then.." ..in addition to pushing a book on it? Wouldn't you wonder to yourself "gee..that match took place over 4 decades ago! This guy needs to get a life(the student that is)"

You want to suggest a book for reading..totally fine. It just comes across like you are trying to score brownie points to Master WJM. Enough already!

[yutyeesam]

Laterthannever -
Actually, he doesn't say that Bruce lost, in the way that we might imagine one losing. In fact, WJM left the fight with a visible wound on him, but Bruce had not a scratch on him. I'll refrain from spoilers, as tempting as it is! It's seriously an entertaining read.

It's the context for which this bout took place I find most fascinating.

It's one of those, "The truth is probably somewhere in the middle" books.

At any rate, I hope Gene is able to get in touch with Rick Wing, for an interview. Rick's a talented writer.

[Scott R. Brown]

Winning and losing is often in the eye of the beholder.

I had a friend many years ago who got into a number of fights in high school. He told me that when he fought it didn't really matter who won or who lost, what mattered was who looked the worst. If you won the fight but looked the worst, everyone would believe you lost. And what everyone believed happened was more important that what actually happened.

[LaterthanNever]

Scott,

You make a very good point. Criteria for "winning" is relative.


Thinking independently, if Bruce did win the WJM match as many originally stated, would that make him MORE satisfied with Wing Chun as a style and not less?

Wouldn't it mean he would continue his WC study instead of leaving the "classical mess"?

Hmmmm

[Kellen Bassette]

Winning and losing is often in the eye of the beholder.

One fight I got into, the guy never laid a hand on me. Reached out and tried to choke me from the front with both hands, I knocked his hands down and roundhouse kicked him hard in the leg. His leg gave out and he ran to his house, as fast as he could doing a sideways/one-legged hobble, poked his head out the door and yelled, "I kicked his ***!" Then locked himself in his house.

Winning can be very subjective.

[Syn7]

If you dummy on some guy and you get arrested and catch a charge and a nice civil suit to boot which awards damages in excess of what you have, did you win the fight?

If Bruce Lee got beat up and it inspired him to be better, did he lose?

[hskwarrior]

At any rate, I hope Gene is able to get in touch with Rick Wing, for an interview. Rick's a talented writer.

i told rick the last time i was with him to get a hold of gene. we'll see what happens. btw......rick is pretty **** good

here is Rick (in the white pants).....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYRKC...D37FBC0E051FB7

[Scott R. Brown]

Scott,

You make a very good point. Criteria for "winning" is relative.


Thinking independently, if Bruce did win the WJM match as many originally stated, would that make him MORE satisfied with Wing Chun as a style and not less?

Wouldn't it mean he would continue his WC study instead of leaving the "classical mess"?

Hmmmm

As I recall, what Bruce was unhappy about was how long it took to win and how winded he was. He thought he should have won quicker and easier.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Originally Posted by LaterthanNever
No sir. I am making an issue with what seems to be (from a distance ) your whole reason for being!(ie: bringing up a fight which took place probably right around the time I was BORN!!)

So why post anything on this forum at all then? Isn't this the place to discuss things like martial history? Discussing the fight that brought about the creation of Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do isn't the whole reason for my being. I do find it interesting though.

Is that so? It seems alot more likely that you are trying to suck up to Master WJM in an effort to attain some type of fringe benefit.(ie: you'll get preferential treatment..or maybe he'll make you a disciple or something else). I can't image that Master WJM would even really care about a fight that judging from your emotional maturity..happened either before you were born or were just a lad!

HAHA!! Is that how it works in your school? Wong Jack Man retired in 2005 and I was his student before that. As far as I know he hasn't taught a class since, but I wouldn't know since no one's really seen or heard from him since then. And originally he didn't really care about the fight, not until he started being painted as this evil, prejudiced bad guy who was hell bent on closing down Bruce's school.

Even if as you say...it was NOT over whether or not he could teach non-Chinese..why is this an issue years and years and years later?

It's an issue because that's the story that's still being told online and in magazines. It's an issue because it's NOT true and yet, people want so badly to believe this myth. Why wouldn't I want to defend my former sifu? It reflects badly on me and everyone who ever learned from him if people believe these lies about him. Wouldn't you defend your sifu if someone said he was a dishonorable tool? Or did you learn your stuff from youtube videos?

Tada!!! Motive exposed folks!! The emperor has no clothes! Can I direct your attention to the pink elephant in the room please? I was right..you are noing more than a sychophant!

What motive? Trying to defend a grandmaster of Ku Yu Cheung's lineage who's public image was tarnished by false claims of him being a racist and a coward? Once again, this is just a forum that's meant for these types of discussions. What sort of preferential treatment could I get from a man who retired from teaching kung fu 8 years ago? Some of his students had been learning from him for years and years longer than me and they don't have any contact with him or expect any fringe benefits.

For someone so vocal, why not contact Linda Lee-Emery and ask her directly instead of doing such a passive agressive thing as bad mouthing her, Bruce and anyone else affiliated with Bruce?

How honorable is it trash talking a dead man? If Master Wong Jack Man is still ranting about this years later..something is awry. My feeling is that if Bruce were still alive, he would have moved on like anyone with any intelligence. While we are bantering about honor, how honorable is it for a student of a skilled master to engage in back talk behind the scenes? I call it cowardice!

I would contact her if that were possible. Do you have her number? I would actually love to get to the bottom of how this rumor about Wong Jack Man being a racist who wanted to shut down Bruce's school got started. Maybe this is what Bruce or somebody told her. She wasn't fluent in Cantonese so I'm sure she wouldn't have known what people were saying around her at the time unless she asked them to tell her in English. I'm not condemning her, I'm just curious about where this information came from.

Wong Sifu is not ranting about this. To my knowledge, he hasn't talked about it publicly for over 30 years. And I'm not engaged in back talk "behind the scenes". I'm front and center saying all of this.

I could but what's the point? I already know the theme of the book: Bruce lost.
It's like a movie spoiler..once you know the plot and the way things went down..what's the entertainment value

I never said Bruce Lee lost. Read the book, it's quite entertaining.

Wouldn't you be wondering if a former student of Bruces decides to engage in a smear campaign against Master WJM by running to the kfo forum and saying "guess what..WJM lost the fight...and then..and then..and then.." ..in addition to pushing a book on it? Wouldn't you wonder to yourself "gee..that match took place over 4 decades ago! This guy needs to get a life(the student that is)"

If WJM had said Bruce Lee was prejudiced and tried keeping him from teaching us gwai lo, then I would read the book and wonder if there was anything to this. Let me ask you, aren't you interested in how JKD was created? This is Bruce Lee we're talking about here. Isn't that worth discussing on the Kung Fu Magazine Forums? Otherwise, what's the point of this whole forum? You're on here posting about this subject, shouldn't you get a life then?

Thinking independently, if Bruce did win the WJM match as many originally stated, would that make him MORE satisfied with Wing Chun as a style and not less?

Wouldn't it mean he would continue his WC study instead of leaving the "classical mess"?

Hmmmm

Exacta-friggin'-mundo! Has that ever really made sense to anyone? People aren't familiar with Wong Jack Man. He is a Northern Shaolin grandmaster. It's not like he was some random punk off the street. When Bruce fought him it was a much bigger deal than if he'd just fought some novice who nobody knew. Back then, people in SF's Chinatown knew who he was. He was friends with Ming Lum and many other sifus in the area. If Bruce had won without a doubt it would have been kind of a big deal and his Wing Chun would have been shown to be superior. But no, he "didn't win fast enough"? Once again, read the book. It's quite good.

[LaterthanNever]

"So why post anything on this forum at all then? Isn't this the place to discuss things like martial history? Discussing the fight that brought about the creation of Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do isn't the whole reason for my being. I do find it interesting though."

Again..you fail to get it. The man is DEAD!! There is a famous saying.."those who write history are those who are around to talk about it". It's possible that there could have been quite a few reasons acting in symphony behind JKDs genesis!


"HAHA!! Is that how it works in your school? "

No. Jesse is dead as of June of last year. Buried in July. He was also adamant that he didn't teach JKD, but rather "non classical gung fu".


" but I wouldn't know since ...."

Then why get involved?


"no one's really seen or heard from him since then. And originally he didn't really care about the fight, not until he started being painted as this evil, prejudiced bad guy who was hell bent on closing down Bruce's school. "

So if he cares then why not let him issue a statement then? Either in a magazine or on this forum? Shouldn't HE be the individual to speak about this disparity?

"It's an issue because"

Really? Funny. Pretty much anyone I know who studies kung fu..or for that matter, just about any style of martial art who does so for self defense reasons could really CARE LESS about the fact that Bruce taught non chinese. And CARE LESS about the myth of your sifu being painted as a xenophobic control freak. If the story about Master WJM being the one to cry fowl is true or if it's false, I've never heard anyone say "I was feeling pretty desparate since I'm not chinese, but since Bruce broke the mold, now I have hope to learn kung fu". Sure, there are those who are equally interested in the history who pay more attention to it, but it would be a fallacy to say that it was Bruce alone who taught non chinese. The late Grandmaster Ark Yuey Wong taught non chinese well before Bruce(if his bio is to be believed) as did Grandmaster Shum Leung of Eagle Claw back in 1972. I'm sure there are plenty of others too. There is this thing called Hollywood and being an actor, Bruces' name was visible probably magnified what other kung fu masters were already doing.



"that's the story that's still being told online and in magazines. It's an issue because it's NOT true and yet, people want so badly to believe this myth."

See above. "SO BADLY"? Outside of the maybe 3% of those who study kung fu who take an interest in the history, I'd say the majority of folks hear it and then go back to practicing!


"Why wouldn't I want to defend my former sifu? It reflects badly on me and everyone who ever learned from him if people believe these lies about him."

I think you are misinterpreting my comments here. It's perfectly honorable and acceptable to defend him. But if you want people to read the book then just say "hey..read this book". It's your way of going about it..like screaming like Geraldo Rivera and pounding your fist like a cheerleader that I think is overkill. You could


" Wouldn't you defend your sifu if someone said he was a dishonorable tool?"

Yes. But I don't think those words were used.



"Or did you learn your stuff from youtube videos?"

Well come out here to Seattle and I'll show you

" What sort of preferential treatment could I get from a man who retired from teaching kung fu 8 years ago?"

Maybe just an increased feeling of comfort internally that you "settled the score"?
Besides, if someone took the trouble of writing a book about how it really went down, then isn't that sufficient? People CAN READ you know?


"Some of his students had been learning from him for years and years longer than me and they don't have any contact with him or expect any fringe benefits."

Again, why not just let people read the book? .

" Do you have her number?"

No

"I would actually love to get to the bottom of how this rumor about Wong Jack Man being a racist who wanted to shut down Bruce's school got started. Maybe this is what Bruce or somebody told her. She wasn't fluent in Cantonese so I'm sure she wouldn't have known what people were saying around her at the time unless she asked them to tell her in English. I'm not condemning her, I'm just curious about where this information came from."

Thanks to the miracle known as Google, I found this..allegedly quoted from Linda:

"The clash with Wong Jack Man metamorphosed his own personal expression of kung fu. Until this battle, he had largely been content to improvise and expand on his original Wing Chun style, but then he suddenly realized that although he had won comparatively easily, his performance had been neither crisp of efficient. The fight, he realized, ought to have ended within a few seconds of him striking the first blows - instead of which it had dragged on for three minutes. In addition, at the end, Bruce had felt unusually winded which proved to him he was far from perfect condition. So he began to dissect the fight, analyzing where he had gone wrong and seeking to find ways where he could have improved his performance. It did not take him long to realize that the basis of his fighting art, the Wing Chun style, was insufficient. It laid too much stress on hand techniques, had very few kicking techniques and was, essentially, partial."

Tell me something, shouldn't the statements: "his performance had been neither crisp or efficient" and "Bruce had felt unusually winded which proved to him he was far from perfect condition" be a COMPLIMENT to Master Wong Jack mans' ability? I have found nothing thus far where she said anything about him being a "racist" and "coward".


"Wong Sifu is not ranting about this. To my knowledge, he hasn't talked about it publicly for over 30 years."

That should tell you something.


I never said Bruce Lee lost. Read the book, it's quite entertaining.


" Let me ask you, aren't you interested in how JKD was created?"

Sure, but I already know. I did have Jesse as a resource to ask you know? And for that I am grateful.


" Otherwise, what's the point of this whole forum? You're on here posting about this subject, shouldn't you get a life then?"

Man, you know something, you are right! Neither one of us have a life. Whadda you say we both join a circus?

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Originally Posted by LaterthanNever
Again..you fail to get it. The man is DEAD!! There is a famous saying.."those who write history are those who are around to talk about it". It's possible that there could have been quite a few reasons acting in symphony behind JK!

"HAHA!! Is that how it works in your school? "

No. Jesse is dead as of June of last year. Buried in July. He was also adamant that he didn't teach JKD, but rather "non classical gung fu".

So what, nobody talks about dead people on this forum? No one talks about Bruce Lee even though he's dead? Despite him being dead there's still documentaries coming about him. I think what you really have a problem with is that I'm sticking up for Wong Jack Man. Why is it always bad when someone speaks up for Wong Jack Man's side in this? Throughout the years I've noticed that whenever I do there's always some Bruce Lee fanatic telling me, “How can you say that! The man is dead!”

When I said, “Is that how it works in your school?", it was a reference to your statement that it seemed like I was “trying to suck up to Master WJM in an effort to attain some type of fringe benefit.” I don't train under people who operate like this. My teachers have judged me by my character and how proficient I am with their art. I don't understand why you're bringing up Jesse Glover. I've never had anything against him but it's my guess you would be more than ready do a character assassination of Sifu Wong.

So if he cares then why not let him issue a statement then? Either in a magazine or on this forum? Shouldn't HE be the individual to speak about this disparity?

Really? Funny. Pretty much anyone I know who studies kung fu..or for that matter, just about any style of martial art who does so for self defense reasons could really CARE LESS about the fact that Bruce taught non chinese. And CARE LESS about the myth of your sifu being painted as a xenophobic control freak.

Um...he has issued statements. There was the Official Karate article back in 1980 (http://www.kungfu.net/brucelee.html). There was the lawsuit. It was largely because of Bruce Lee's fame and the fanaticism of his fans that he gave up on trying to stem the tide of BS a long time ago. If everyone cared less about this story then why does it show up everywhere? It shows up on countless websites and in countless martial arts magazine articles. It was worked into the major motion picture, “Dragon, The Bruce Lee Story”.

Along with Bruce Lee himself, almost every JKD instructor and friend of Bruce's who ever lived has cited this particular match as the reason Bruce quit practicing Wing Chun. In almost every version of this story out there, the reason for the dispute was because Bruce was teaching non-Chinese. Oh, but I guess everyone could care less.

See above. "SO BADLY"? Outside of the maybe 3% of those who study kung fu who take an interest in the history, I'd say the majority of folks hear it and then go back to practicing!

I think you are misinterpreting my comments here. It's perfectly honorable and acceptable to defend him. But if you want people to read the book then just say "hey..read this book". It's your way of going about it..like screaming like Geraldo Rivera and pounding your fist like a cheerleader that I think is overkill.

People on this forum care about martial history. If it doesn't interest you then maybe you should go back to practicing. I already did.

I have been telling people to read the book! It baffles and amazes me that hardly anyone has. I can't believe how people start threads on this forum about every rinky-dink thing imaginable. They go on and on and on about whether Shaolin Do is for real. Meanwhile a well-researched book about what was arguably the most significant fight in Bruce Lee's life goes unnoticed. I was hoping to discuss the book with people on this thread but instead I get bogged down defending my posts from people like you. Why is it people can be Bruce Lee cheerleaders and dredge up everything about his life again and again and go on and on about how great he was and I can't say my piece on this without being called a hatchet man?

Well come out here to Seattle and I'll show you*

Maybe you can come down here to LA and show me.

" What sort of preferential treatment could I get from a man who retired from teaching kung fu 8 years ago?"

Maybe just an increased feeling of comfort internally that you "settled the score"?
Besides, if someone took the trouble of writing a book about how it really went down, then isn't that sufficient? People CAN READ you know?

Again, why not just let people read the book?

Once again, I have been telling people to read it but besides one person on here, no one's actually commented on it.

Thanks to the miracle known as Google, I found this..allegedly quoted from Linda:

You left out a lot of stuff. Like this:

"...Bruce soon found that at first his views were not shared by members of the Chinese community in San Francisco, particularly those in martial arts' circles. Several months after he and James Lee had begun teaching, a kung fu expert called Wong Jack Man turned up at Bruce's kwoon (school) on Broadway. Wong had just recently arrived in San Francisco's Chinatown from Hong Kong and was seeking to establish himself at the time, all his pupils being strictly pure Chinese. Three other Chinese accompanied Wong Jack Man who handed Bruce an ornate scroll which appears to have been an ultimatum from the San Francisco martial arts community. Presumably, if Bruce lost the challenge, he was either to close down his Institute or stop teaching Caucasians."

It's not because I'm trying to get some sort of special treatment that I'm trying to set the record straight on this. I haven't even talked to Sifu Wong since 2005. I just don't feel it's right that this version of the story is still perpetuated without any sort of rebuttal.

[Fa Xing]

SLF,

Are you in LA now?

[Siu Lum Fighter]

I see, this is when all of the hardcore BL fanatics start challenging me to a fight. Why is it always the Bruce Lee fans who want to fight over this particular disagreement? I guess this forum has turned into a bulletin for challenge matches then. It's all so we can see who's style is more beast!

[bawang]

I see, this is when all of the hardcore BL fanatics start challenging me to a fight. Why is it always the Bruce Lee fans who want to fight over this particular disagreement? I guess this forum has turned into a bulletin for challenge matches then. It's all so we can see who's style is more beast!

you are also a fanatic. you are bak choy sil lum fanatic.