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Thread: Bruce Lee vs. Wong Jack Man fight

  1. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by Fa Xing View Post
    I forgot about this other account, makes me want to re-read Jesse's book and the Oakland one at the same time to see a comparison. Quite truthfully, both versions put it at WJM coming in to Bruce's studio to issue a challenge in response to a challenge Bruce may or may not have issued during a demonstration that may or may not have been misunderstood. Honestly, if a group of men came in to challenge me at my own school, I would react the same (or call the authorities, or both).

    Mystic, when you read Oakland, you'll get some of the followup to what led WJM to Bruce.
    Well I did it. I finally read all of Showdown in Oakland. I have to say that it was a very good read and very well researched.

    Here are what I considered to be Rick Wing's most important points:

    1. The cause of the fight was Bruce Lee's challenge at the Sun Sing theater.

    2. The fight was not over Bruce Lee's right to teach non-Chinese.

    3. Linda Lee did not witness the fight.

    4. Wong Jack Man and his crew intended the fight to be a sparring match with limitations on technique.

    5. Bruce Lee attacked Wong Jack Man from the onset when he extended his hand, landing a blow above the eye which left a mark.

    6. Wong Jack Man was able to do damage to Bruce Lee during the fight with a strike to the side of the neck.

    7. Wong Jack Man slipped over a raised portion of the floor and Bruce Lee attacked him but did no damage.

    8. The fight was stopped due to the intervention of the men witnessing the event.

    9. Bruce Lee had demanded that Wong Jack Man admit defeat but he never yielded.

    10. There was a battle in the newspapers over the outcome of the fight.

    The battle in the newspapers was most interesting to me in this book. This was very new information to me and extremely bizarre. Basically someone had wrote in a Chinese newspaper that the fight was over a beautiful young actress who Bruce Lee had done a Cha-Cha dance with at the Sun Sing theater who Wong Jack Man was obsessed with and that Bruce Lee had lost the fight but scared Wong enough in to leaving her alone. Bruce Lee tried to set the record straight in the newspaper by denying these events and also declared that he was victorious in the fight.

    I found that Rick Wing had a lot of credibility regarding the aftermath of the fight because he provided copies of the newspaper articles along with English translations. I wasn't however convinced of his account of the fight's result. He relied heavily on the Dorgan article for his analysis and tried to defend the narrative that the fight lasted around 20 minutes. He even considered the 3 minutes narrative provided by Linda and others to be absurd because he believed Bruce Lee was in good enough condition to last longer than a one round Boxing match. But we know from combat sports that a fighter can easily punch themselves out in the first Round if they don't pace themselves. Remember that according to Jesse Glover the issue with Bruce Lee in the fight was that he had trouble closing in on his opponent who was very swift and evaded him the whole fight while Bruce Lee exhausted himself throwing punches.

    I think that Wing's insistence that Wong Jack Man not be vilified as a racist is a bigger issue than who won the fight. Did Bruce win? Was it a draw? Those matters are not clear but the evidence that Wong Jack Man was a representative of Chinese masters who didn't want Bruce teaching non-Chinese is severely lacking and I think Linda Lee should be questioned rigorously for her basis for that information. It's also interesting that she may not have seen the fight at all but her's is not the only account of Bruce Lee's decisive victory. Bruce Lee himself said in a Chinese newspaper and later in Black Belt Magazine that he had beaten Wong Jack Man soundly and gotten him to verbally submit. In fact in the Chinese paper Bruce Lee said that Wong Jack Man was so badly damaged and bruised that he did not show up for work for three days.

    It's very possible that Bruce Lee embellished the outcome to save face or maybe the witnesses who say the fight was a draw are all lying. Someone lied about the outcome of this fight. I guess we'll never truly know exactly what happened but it is interesting that such thorough research has been done on the matter.
    Last edited by MysticNinjaJay; 08-10-2014 at 07:47 AM.

  2. #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay View Post
    Well I did it. I finally read all of Showdown in Oakland. I have to say that it was a very good read and very well researched.

    Here are what I considered to be Rick Wing's most important points:

    1. The cause of the fight was Bruce Lee's challenge at the Sun Sing theater.

    2. The fight was not over Bruce Lee's right to teach non-Chinese.

    3. Linda Lee did not witness the fight.

    4. Wong Jack Man and his crew intended the fight to be a sparring match with limitations on technique.

    5. Bruce Lee attacked Wong Jack Man from the onset when he extended his hand, landing a blow above the eye which left a mark.

    6. Wong Jack Man was able to do damage to Bruce Lee during the fight with a strike to the side of the neck.

    7. Wong Jack Man slipped over a raised portion of the floor and Bruce Lee attacked him but did no damage.

    8. The fight was stopped due to the intervention of the men witnessing the event.

    9. Bruce Lee had demanded that Wong Jack Man admit defeat but he never yielded.

    10. There was a battle in the newspapers over the outcome of the fight.

    The battle in the newspapers was most interesting to me in this book. This was very new information to me and extremely bizarre. Basically someone had wrote in a Chinese newspaper that the fight was over a beautiful young actress who Bruce Lee had done a Cha-Cha dance with at the Sun Sing theater who Wong Jack Man was obsessed with and that Bruce Lee had lost the fight but scared Wong enough in to leaving her alone. Bruce Lee tried to set the record straight in the newspaper by denying these events and also declared that he was victorious in the fight.

    I found that Rick Wing had a lot of credibility regarding the aftermath of the fight because he provided copies of the newspaper articles along with English translations. I wasn't however convinced of his account of the fight's result. He relied heavily on the Dorgan article for his analysis and tried to defend the narrative that the fight lasted around 20 minutes. He even considered the 3 minutes narrative provided by Linda and others to be absurd because he believed Bruce Lee was in good enough condition to last longer than a one round Boxing match. But we know from combat sports that a fighter can easily punch themselves out in the first Round if they don't pace themselves. Remember that according to Jesse Glover the issue with Bruce Lee in the fight was that he had trouble closing in on his opponent who was very swift and evaded him the whole fight while Bruce Lee exhausted himself throwing punches.

    I think that Wing's insistence that Wong Jack Man not be vilified as a racist is a bigger issue than who won the fight. Did Bruce win? Was it a draw? Those matters are not clear but the evidence that Wong Jack Man was a representative of Chinese masters who didn't want Bruce teaching non-Chinese is severely lacking and I think Linda Lee should be questioned rigorously for her basis for that information. It's also interesting that she may not have seen the fight at all but her's is not the only account of Bruce Lee's decisive victory. Bruce Lee himself said in a Chinese newspaper and later in Black Belt Magazine that he had beaten Wong Jack Man soundly and gotten him to verbally submit. In fact in the Chinese paper Bruce Lee said that Wong Jack Man was so badly damaged and bruised that he did not show up for work for three days.

    It's very possible that Bruce Lee embellished the outcome to save face or maybe the witnesses who say the fight was a draw are all lying. Someone lied about the outcome of this fight. I guess we'll never truly know exactly what happened but it is interesting that such thorough research has been done on the matter.
    Very astute observations!

  3. #453
    Greetings,

    The Jesse Glover, second hand, account becomes more important in understanding the "wtf really happenedf" when compared to the synthesis of Rick Wing's expositions on this thread. Since it was told to Glover by Bruce Lee himself, it is starting to look more like damage control in an effort to protect his image to his students (and, maybe, to himself) as the consummate kung fu man.


    mickey

  4. #454
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    What I'd like to know is, why do any of you even care about this?
    It is meaningless really when it gets right down to it.

    I am stunned that there is still back and forth about some squabble that proved nothing, to anyone about anything at all is still argued about by people who never knew the guy or who were born long after his death (with a couple of exemptions on you old guys here).

    So, here's my question: "why do you care about this footnote in Bruce Lee's life"?
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  5. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by Fa Xing View Post
    Very astute observations!
    Thanks.

    Now that I've read the book I can compare Rick Wing's research to Jesse Glover's account and other sources to get a clearer picture of what happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by mickey View Post
    Greetings,

    The Jesse Glover, second hand, account becomes more important in understanding the "wtf really happenedf" when compared to the synthesis of Rick Wing's expositions on this thread. Since it was told to Glover by Bruce Lee himself, it is starting to look more like damage control in an effort to protect his image to his students (and, maybe, to himself) as the consummate kung fu man.


    mickey
    What I find particularly interesting about Glover's account and Wing's research are the differences between what happened in the aftermath of the fight. Glover says that Bruce Lee read a story in the newspaper saying that he lost the fight to Wong Jack Man and was hospitalized. He then went to the editor, demanded he print a retraction and forced him to give up the source which turned out to be Wong Jack Man. But Rick Wing supplied the actual copy of the newspaper article which isn't exactly flattering to Wong Jack Man. It does say Bruce Lee lost (nothing about being hospitalized) but it also says the fight was over a Chinese actress named Zhang Zhongwen, who Wong Jack Man was allegedly stalking and Bruce Lee fought him to get him to back off. I doubt that Wong Jack Man told anyone to put that sort of gossip in the paper as it makes him look bad.

    I find it interesting that Wing says Bruce Lee went to Wong Jack Man's workplace to make peace and Glover says Bruce Lee went there for a possible violent confrontation which scared the hell out of Wong. If Glover's account is true I wouldn't be surprised if Wong omitted this from his account of events but Bruce could have also made it up. Rick Wing has a lot of evidence on his side including the newspapers and eyewitness testimonies while Glover's account is indeed a second hand source. I hate to say it but I'm starting to find Wing's account a bit more credible than the other stories out there. I don't want to believe Bruce Lee was a liar and I think Wong Jack Man easily could have lied but there's a lot of evidence in the favor of Wong Jack Man on this story although I'm not convinced that the fight happened exactly the way Wing says it did.


    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    What I'd like to know is, why do any of you even care about this?
    It is meaningless really when it gets right down to it.

    I am stunned that there is still back and forth about some squabble that proved nothing, to anyone about anything at all is still argued about by people who never knew the guy or who were born long after his death (with a couple of exemptions on you old guys here).

    So, here's my question: "why do you care about this footnote in Bruce Lee's life"?
    The reason people care is because its an interesting and controversial topic. This fight set Bruce Lee on the path to becoming the breakthrough movie star that popularized Martial Arts. So it's important from a historical perspective. The fact that there are different accounts of the event make it even more interesting for people who want to play detective and try to uncover the truth. Since it wasn't recorded nothing will truly be resolved on the matter. We'll never know what really and truly happened as an objective fact. Only the people who were there know and they're getting old and dying. The rest of us are simply left wondering and for some that can be a fun thing to do.
    Last edited by MysticNinjaJay; 08-11-2014 at 01:45 PM.

  6. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    What I'd like to know is, why do any of you even care about this?
    It is meaningless really when it gets right down to it.

    I am stunned that there is still back and forth about some squabble that proved nothing, to anyone about anything at all is still argued about by people who never knew the guy or who were born long after his death (with a couple of exemptions on you old guys here).

    So, here's my question: "why do you care about this footnote in Bruce Lee's life"?
    Serious response/question; do you feel that way about everything in the past?

    In this particular case, spreading the idea that the Chinese kung fu community was so racist this fight happened to prevent gwai loh and hak gwaai from learning kung fu if it wasn't true was kind of F'ed up
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
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    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  7. #457
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    Lee has been dead, buried and rotten for quite some time.

    He was not all that he claimed he was.

    Wong Jack Man outlived him.

    Many others did.
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  8. #458
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    Lee has been dead, buried and rotten for quite some time.

    He was not all that he claimed he was.

    Wong Jack Man outlived him.

    Many others did.
    nothing could be more true. wong jack man is still alive today. bruce lee left with his head hanging low when he tried to start stuff at Hung Sing Kwoon in SF Chinatown too. He was just a man.
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  9. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    Serious response/question; do you feel that way about everything in the past?

    In this particular case, spreading the idea that the Chinese kung fu community was so racist this fight happened to prevent gwai loh and hak gwaai from learning kung fu if it wasn't true was kind of F'ed up
    I certainly believe that this story is important because the standard narrative includes claims that seriously hurt the character of some of the participants. The Chinese Martial Arts community in San Francisco's Chinatown is uniformly regarded as racist and Wong Jack Man is made out to be the enforcer of this tradition making him a racist by association. Any decent person would not want their reputation marred in such a way.

    Wong Jack Man is also made out to be a coward who fled during battle, surrendered pathetically and later lied about the outcome of the fight displaying further cowardice when confronted by Bruce Lee at the restaurant where he worked.

    This story is especially interesting to fans of Bruce Lee and supporters of Wong Jack Man but should catch the interest in anyone interested in Martial Arts history. If it hadn't happened history might not have turned out the way it did. Since something did happen I would like to try to get the facts straight as much as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
    nothing could be more true. wong jack man is still alive today. bruce lee left with his head hanging low when he tried to start stuff at Hung Sing Kwoon in SF Chinatown too. He was just a man.
    Tell us about this story. What's your source for this information?

  10. #460
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    Tell us about this story. What's your source for this information?
    I learned these things from my gung fu uncles that were there when it happened. You can also find bits and pieces of what Bruce Lee felt about Lau Bun being the real deal.
    i'm not going to get into so much detail about this, but there were more than one occasion that bruce lee's students were beat up by Lau Bun's students. Bruce Lee came downstairs to the school yelling and screaming. when Lau Bun came out of his office, Bruce Lee immediately left without a word and his head down. Lau Bun was like the god father of Chinatown. bruce knew this.

    there are stories of bruce lee sending the green hornet actor down to hung sing and he got beat up the stairs and out into the streets. my gung fu uncle even got on stage and blocked all of bruce lee's punches in front of an audience when bruce said his punches were too fast to block. guess he was wrong.
    Last edited by hskwarrior; 08-11-2014 at 10:30 PM.
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  11. #461
    Greetings,

    "This fight set Bruce Lee on the path to becoming the breakthrough movie star that popularized Martial Arts."

    Actually, it was the late Ed Parker who set Bruce Lee on the path to becoming a movie star; if anything, it set Lee on the path to creating Jeet Kune Do.


    mickey

  12. #462
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    Serious response/question; do you feel that way about everything in the past?

    In this particular case, spreading the idea that the Chinese kung fu community was so racist this fight happened to prevent gwai loh and hak gwaai from learning kung fu if it wasn't true was kind of F'ed up
    Well, It's not an all or nothing thing. This topic is done to death and is a dead end. He said/she said.

    Things in the past can be learned from of course! History and all that what what ho!
    I think that all the lemonade to be had from this subject has been gotten though.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  13. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    Well, It's not an all or nothing thing. This topic is done to death and is a dead end. He said/she said.

    Things in the past can be learned from of course! History and all that what what ho!
    I think that all the lemonade to be had from this subject has been gotten though.
    OK, as long as that's clear. I think one of our major problems today is we never learn from history....

    But Bruce Lee is too much of a personality cult...
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  14. #464
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    Dr. Dale Dugas
    Hakka Mantis
    Integrated Eskrima
    Pukulan Cimande Pusaka Sanders

    All for Use
    Nothing for Show

  15. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mor Sao View Post
    Great Band!
    Vernon Reid is an awesome guitar player.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

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