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Thread: Bruce Lee vs. Wong Jack Man fight

  1. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaterthanNever View Post
    The comment which was offered about Master Wong being painted as a racist is..well..peculiar to me. Both he and Bruce were chinese. I'm caucasin..it's like another white guy saying I'm a racist towards whites..LOL
    The accusations leveled at WJM by the BL camp was that WJM (and/or the people he represented) didn't like Bruce teaching Caucasians (or non-Chinese in general). NOT that WJM was racist towards BL. Personally, I don't buy the accusations.

  2. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    I hate to do this (no, actually, I don't really) but if you are going to talk about his death (or health) then you really need to be aware of this book which the Bruce Lee estate supressed for years... actually, written by Linda Lee's ex husband

    http://memberfiles.freewebs.com/79/2...LEDMATTERS.pdf
    I've read it.

    This does not make the argument that his kung fu had anything to do with his death. There are real arguments to not like the guy or his martial arts, the health one is not a strong one, imo.

    I think we've all known people with good kung fu who are not necessarily good people in every sense of the word.

  3. #438
    It mentions his recreational drug use, his steroid use and his obsession with working out.. some have suggested that he tried so many things and worked out so much he never gave his body a fair chance

    as for being a *****, that has long been a given
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
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    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  4. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    It mentions his recreational drug use, his steroid use and his obsession with working out.. some have suggested that he tried so many things and worked out so much he never gave his body a fair chance
    I tend to think this was the case. I just don't see that as a valid critique of his technique (not that that is what you are saying). There ARE valid critiques, which you have made, I'm just saying if those were the worst that could be said of most (not all) kung fu sifus, then kung fu would be in a lot better shape. Bruce Lee was better than the average modern tma sifu, imo. I know you like rattling the cages of the BL fans, though.

    as for being a *****, that has long been a given

  5. #440
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    The accusations leveled at WJM by the BL camp was that WJM (and/or the people he represented) didn't like Bruce teaching Caucasians (or non-Chinese in general). NOT that WJM was racist towards BL. Personally, I don't buy the accusations.
    Yeah, that's a weird thing to say considering Caucasians were learning TCMA before Bruce even got on the scene.
    My own Dad learned traditional Yang style Tai Chi and some Northen Kung Fu from a Chinese sifu in 1961...
    Not to mention Ark Wong, Lee Ying Arng, and others that kind of blow that idea out of the water...

    so there's that.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  6. #441
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    Not everyone in SF's Chinatown was against teaching outsiders in the 60's. But Lau Bun came before all of those guys and he didn't agree to teaching non chinese. sure towards the end of his life he may have made some exceptions, but after interviewing his students, they all agreed he generally wouldn't teach non chinese. so in the bay area at least, there was a big thing about non chinese learning gung fu.
    Last edited by hskwarrior; 06-19-2014 at 12:59 PM.
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  7. #442
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    "onsidering Caucasians were learning TCMA before Bruce even got on the scene."

    There are a few. The late Robert W. Smith(prolific author) learned kung fu (in China no less!) and he wasn't Chinese.

    There were also other Chinese instructors besides Bruce who taught non chinese(GM Ark Yuey Wong,etc.

    Concerning the book. I'm pleased to see mention of the late Master Fook Yeung(full name Yeung Gao Fook) who actually taught BL for more years than the late Ip Man. Master Yeung was a family friend of Bruce's dad and a member of the Red Boat Floating Opera troupe. He taught Bruce "red boat" WC which has elements of Southern Mantis and some other arts.

    He recently died at..I believe 98 years old.

    I find the claim that Bruce used anabolics to be dubious at best. Anabolics have a very noticeable effect on hypertropy of muscular growth and with how intense he trained he undoubtedly would have been much more massive and muscular.

  8. #443
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    T.Y. Wong was teaching white folk in the 50's and was on tv as well before bruce showed up
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  9. #444
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    Unsettled Matters is an interesting book which I liked in terms of reading about things that may or may not happened, some of which can be refuted in other sources, but everyone is allowed to believe what they like. Although steroid development didn't really begin until the 1930's, there wasn't any reliable way of testing for it until after Bruce's death in 1975. That being said, it probably was available, whether he took it, we'll just never know. Just as an aside, Bruce is reported to have had cryptorchidism (undescended testes) on one side, which can limit natural testosterone production, but could also make a man infertile and clearly he had children...so, what I am getting at is that he could have been prescribed testosterone or steroids for medical treatment (but there is no evidence to support or refute that claim).

    Quite frankly, does any of this matter? I don't worship Bruce Lee, but I do study and train JKD, and his writings and movements help me to understand Jun Fan JKD better. However, if you really want to be good at anything, you have to question everything and come to your own conclusions yourself because it's not about the "style" but the individual.

    Happy training!

  10. #445
    I am currently reading Jesse Glover's book Bruce Lee: Between Wing Chun and Jeet Kune Do. Jesse gives a very interesting account of the fight and the aftermath that comes directly through communication with Bruce Lee.

    Here's an excerpt:


    When Bruce left Seattle to move to California he had only one fight in the U.S. The next time that I spoke with him he told me that he had gotten into a fight with a student of a student of the famous master who had appeared on the front cover of Blackbelt magazine breaking 17 bricks. Bruce was at his school in Oakland with Linda (his wife) and James Lee his assistant in Oakland, and the man walked in with four or five people. The man was wearing a Gung Fu uniform and his manner indicated that he was there to promote some type of trouble. Bruce gave me a detailed description of the conversation that led up to the fight, but I have long since forgotten details. It is important to note that the man came looking for Bruce and not the other way around. Bruce said that he was both angry and pissed off that the challenge was taking place in front of his wife. Another thought that was rushing through his mind was whether he and James could win if the other people joined the attack.

    When Bruce finally squared off to fight, the other people remained on the sidelines, and he focused all of his attention on the coming battle. Bruce made his attack and the man turned and fled around the room. As the man moved away from him he lashed out backwards with both hands. Bruce said that the man could really move fast and that it was all the he could do to keep within punching range as he pursued him. He said that the man’s backward strikes were some type of finger strike and that he felt them graze him across the forehead as he gave chase. Bruce chased the man around the room and several of his punches bounced off the back of the man’s head. The man’s speed at running away nullified much of the effect of Bruce’s punches, and he was beginning to punch himself out. He said that he felt a slight touch of panic, not because of anything that the other man was doing but because he was running out of steam. The panic caused him to move a little faster and he managed to close and knock the man to the floor. He pinned the man to the floor and asked him what he had in mind now that he was trapped on the floor. The man said that he had made a mistake in coming to challenge Bruce, and acknowledged that he had lost the fight. The following week a story of the fight had appeared in the Chinese newspaper. The story said that Bruce had lost the fight and that he was in the hospital. It also said that Bruce had taken unfair advantage of the man by attacking before he was prepared.


    When Bruce read the story in the paper he rushed to its office and demanded a retraction. Bruce was so mad that he could hardly control his temper. The editor agreed to print a retraction and Bruce forced him to reveal his source of information. The editor told him that he had gotten his information from Bruce’s opponent. Bruce left the paper and headed straight for the restaurant where the man he had fought worked as a waiter. When he entered the door the man was in the act of pouring tea, and he became so shook by Bruce’s appearance that he poured tea all over the table before he ran to hide in the back of the restaurant. Bruce felt that he had made his point so he didn’t follow the man into the kitchen. I would like to emphasis that when the fight ended Bruce had the opportunity to seriously hurt his opponent but he didn’t. This was an attitude that I found occurring over and over again in Bruce. Once he had an advantage, he would never push it beyond what was necessary. The fight was one of the big turning points in Bruce’s training methods. He had fought a fast opponent who didn’t succumb to his past successful mode of attack and he had to resort to desperate measures to win.

    The fight taught him that there were other men who could move with great speed and that he couldn’t always depend on his quick close to end a fight. It also taught him the value of being in shape to fight for a long time, and that his punch was less devastating to a moving target. These new insights forced Bruce into doing serious roadwork.
    Interesting Cliff notes:

    • Wong Jack Man entered Bruce Lee's school with multiple men to challenge him.
    • Wong Jack Man proved to be an exceptionally fast opponent who Bruce had to chase around the room.
    • Bruce Lee punched himself out and became desperate to end the fight as he began to run out of steam.
    • After losing the fight Wong Jack Man told a Chinese Newspaper that Bruce Lee lost the fight and was hospitalized.
    • Bruce Lee demanded the newspaper print a retraction.
    • Bruce Lee confronted Wong Jack Man at the restaurant where he worked and Wong ran and hid.


    So according to Jesse Glover's account Wong Jack Man was even more of a coward than what has been commonly reported. He ran during the fight. He verbally submitted to Bruce. He lied about winning and he ran and hid from Bruce when he was confronted. This is my first time hearing that Bruce Lee read what Wong Jack Man had to say in the papers and ofcourse it differs significantly for what is written in the Dorgan article.

    I still haven't read Showdown in Oakland but now I'm intrigued to hear what else has been said about this fight.

  11. #446
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    if wong jack man made a bunch of kung fu movies clawing out chest hairs, you would talk about how much of a poosy bruce lee was. bruce lee got away with his chest puffing big fighter posturing because it was chinatown. wong jack man was a restaurant worker working 10 hrs a day eating nothing but cabbage and rice, and he was the best chinatown had to offer to challenge bruce. if he tried same thing in china he wouldve lost his other testicle.
    Last edited by bawang; 08-04-2014 at 09:23 PM.

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  12. #447
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay View Post
    I am currently reading Jesse Glover's book Bruce Lee: Between Wing Chun and Jeet Kune Do. Jesse gives a very interesting account of the fight and the aftermath that comes directly through communication with Bruce Lee.

    Interesting Cliff notes:

    • Wong Jack Man entered Bruce Lee's school with multiple men to challenge him.
    • Wong Jack Man proved to be an exceptionally fast opponent who Bruce had to chase around the room.
    • Bruce Lee punched himself out and became desperate to end the fight as he began to run out of steam.
    • After losing the fight Wong Jack Man told a Chinese Newspaper that Bruce Lee lost the fight and was hospitalized.
    • Bruce Lee demanded the newspaper print a retraction.
    • Bruce Lee confronted Wong Jack Man at the restaurant where he worked and Wong ran and hid.


    So according to Jesse Glover's account Wong Jack Man was even more of a coward than what has been commonly reported. He ran during the fight. He verbally submitted to Bruce. He lied about winning and he ran and hid from Bruce when he was confronted. This is my first time hearing that Bruce Lee read what Wong Jack Man had to say in the papers and ofcourse it differs significantly for what is written in the Dorgan article.

    I still haven't read Showdown in Oakland but now I'm intrigued to hear what else has been said about this fight.
    I forgot about this other account, makes me want to re-read Jesse's book and the Oakland one at the same time to see a comparison. Quite truthfully, both versions put it at WJM coming in to Bruce's studio to issue a challenge in response to a challenge Bruce may or may not have issued during a demonstration that may or may not have been misunderstood. Honestly, if a group of men came in to challenge me at my own school, I would react the same (or call the authorities, or both).

    Mystic, when you read Oakland, you'll get some of the followup to what led WJM to Bruce.

  13. #448
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    at the end of the day, i still think bruce lee made a mockery out of kung fu.

    Honorary African American
    grandmaster instructor of Wombat Combat The Lost Art of Anal Destruction™®LLC .
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  14. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    kung fu movies clawing out chest hairs,
    That scene is my earliest memory of Kung Fu.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  15. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faux Newbie View Post
    I've read it.
    There are real arguments to not like the guy or his martial arts, the health one is not a strong one, imo.
    if u get down to bruce lees movieshoot bodyfat percentage, your testes will shutdown and you can spontaneously die.
    Last edited by bawang; 08-07-2014 at 03:00 PM.

    Honorary African American
    grandmaster instructor of Wombat Combat The Lost Art of Anal Destruction™®LLC .
    Senior Business Director at TEAM ASSHAMMER consulting services ™®LLC

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